(08-14-2019, 10:32 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: See I'm sorta on the fence with Billings. He impressed the crap outta me in preseason last year then sorta disappeared the first 3 or 4 games to start last season. To be fair he did improve a lot to finish the season. But is he really good enough to shove all other options, if any out ?

Fedj I wanna keep but what is his injury ?

(08-14-2019, 10:51 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right

I'm no stat nut, I'd say it's out there,  but it seemed we got burnt with a lot of big runs up the gut last year.

Not his fault; Billings was superb last year.

You keep him.

(08-14-2019, 11:26 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Not his fault; Billings was superb last year.

You keep him.

I'd say you and the others are right. Like I said I just wanna the the best making the cut.

(08-14-2019, 10:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Billings seems to "grade out" much better than he looks on the "eye test".  I still have hope for him, but this is his final year of contract, so he better do something special.

 I said the same thing too when watching the games. Billings dosen't look great and seems to get pushed around even tho he had good PFF stats this season.  I thought Billings was a steal when we drafted him and that he could be a force at NT anchoring against the run. I think fixing the defense starts with stopping the run with guys like Billings and Preston Brown. Also thought Peko was a very solid NT during his time here even tho some fans hated him at the end of his career. 

(08-14-2019, 11:33 PM)lone bengal Wrote:  I said the same thing too when watching the games. Billings dosen't look great and seems to get pushed around even tho he had good PFF stats this season.  I thought Billings was a steal when we drafted him and that he could be a force at NT anchoring against the run. I think fixing the defense starts with stopping the run with guys like Billings and Preston Brown. Also thought Peko was a very solid NT during his time here even tho some fans hated him at the end of his career. 

I'm old school and I know it but I still believe it holds true today as much as it did back when. If a team can run on you more or less at will you're beat more often than not.

(08-14-2019, 11:46 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm old school and I know it but I still believe it holds true today as much as it did back when. If a team can run on you more or less at will you're beat more often than not.

Plus when you look at the division you need to stop the run to have a chance. The Steelers have a great O-line with James Conner who played very well in place of Bell. The Ravens have Lamar Jackson and added a bruiser in Mark Engram. The Browns have Nick Chubb and at some point will have Kareem Hunt.

(08-14-2019, 09:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree with Fred on this: typically a player makes his biggest jump going from rookie to 2nd season with a good bit showing improvement 2nd to 3rd year. Sure there's some late blooming going on here and there but by far if they ain't got it by year 4 all they're gonna do is be average at best.

Having said that who of our 4th camp players are worth keeping and who needs to be turned lose ? Here's the list:

Trey Hopkins C/G
Keivarae Russel CB
Christian Ringo DE
Andrew Billings DT
Christian Westerman G
Nick Vigil LB
Jeff Driskel QB/WR
Clayton Fejedelem S
Cody Core WR
Alex Erickson WR

I left Boyd and Jackson III for obvious reasons.

I feel our past leadership failed quite a bit in hanging onto guys who just didn't have "it" for to long. I'm hoping the new think tank is better in this area.

Trey-Really good depth player and can play all 5 OL spots.  Definitely a keeper.

Russell-Been a supporter of his, but CB is just way too stacked and he's being outplayed by other guys.  Has potential, but it's never clicked.

Ringo-He was an emergency depth signing last year, but there's better guys on the roster.

Billings-Never lived up to the draft hype, but he's still a solid starting NT.

Westerman-Always seems to pass the eye test, but there's obviously something 3 different OL coaches aren't seeing out of him.  I could see him cut if he can't win the LG job because the other guys are more versatile and Redmond will be waiting in the wings.

Vigil-Adequate starter/quality backup type.  Keeper on rookie deal money.

Driskel-Cut if he doesn't have trick play value.

Fej-Pro Bowl ST's guy and could start for a number of teams.  Keeper.

Core-Getting outplayed by the other bubble WR's.  Cut.

Erickson-Kinda mediocre as a WR and limited upside, but you don't cut your return man unless someone has definitely taken his job.

(08-14-2019, 11:26 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Not his fault; Billings was superb last year.

You keep him.

Trivia time:

Billings was the 2nd most heralded dlineman on his college football team. Who was #1? 

(08-15-2019, 12:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Trivia time:

Billings was the 2nd most heralded dlineman on his college football team. Who was #1? 

I think Oakman ended up getting found innocent on those charges

(08-14-2019, 10:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I didn't know who Ringo was until he got hurt. No Shit! Some of these guys have not really had a legitimate shot. But, I see a lot of upside in Vigil and Erickson. Vigil did well last year until the injury. Also, to add to you opinion about past leadership, that has probably been the demise of many of these players and it's unfortunate. Our leadership didn't know how to coach up, teach, discipline then trust. A lot of players with great talent came here via the draft that had failed careers. Granted, a lot will not fair well under ZT either, but at least they will get attention and given the ability to show their stuff and learn from their mistakes. They will get a legitimate chance to make or break their own careers.

Marvin was an idiot at player development and so was the rest of the staff. John Ross is a good example, well, maybe a bad one in the same breath. Too many rookies didn't get their shot because of declining players with seniority. 

A large number of players were developed under Marvin. The fact that Ross flopped says more about Ross than Marvin.

Hopkins has developed into a reliable backup C and can start as needed. He was an UDFA.
Marvin Jones was a 5th round pick.
Geno Atikins was a 4th round pick.
Sanu was a 2nd round pick.
Boling was a 4th round pick.
Iloka was a 5th round pick.
Shawn Williams was a 3rd round pick.
Uzomah was a 5th round pick and was our 3rd leading receiver last season.
Westerman was a 5th round pick.
Vigil was a 3rd.
Burfict was an UDFA.

There are more if I would have gone back further.

When a coach has a front office that, in most cases, will not upgrade positions in free agency, then he has to rely on mid and late round picks to fill positions. This is why Mike Brown covets those comp picks.

Just remember Ross only had one good season in college.

(08-14-2019, 09:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Having said that who of our 4th camp players are worth keeping and who needs to be turned lose ? Here's the list:

Trey Hopkins C/G - I thought we overpaid with the 2nd round tender but I wouldn't mind hanging on to him beyond this year. We need quality depth on our OL

Keivarae Russel CB - Hopefully he gets healthy and makes some plays in the preseason. He could possibly fetch us an OL or LB that may not make it through waivers after final cut downs
Christian Ringo DE - We'll keep his phone number on file. 
Andrew Billings DT - Still our 2nd or 3rd best DT. We need him
Christian Westerman G - He should thank Boling for retiring. He will get another year of NFL paychecks now. He has some preseason action left to get me back on board. 
Nick Vigil LB - Might earn a nice contract extension this year
Jeff Driskel QB- An excellent athlete who can contribute in many phases and get you through a game if the starting QB gets hurt may not be a bad thing to have on our 46 man gameday roster. I think its worth a test run.

Clayton Fejedelem S - Bummer with the injury. He could have pushed Williams for the starting job. I hope he stays.
Cody Core WR - Time for somebody else to show if they can step up.
Alex Erickson WR - Pretty sure he is still under contract for next year. Which is good.

(08-14-2019, 10:21 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's my pretty much slam dunk keepers:

Erickson - there's just to many question marks at WR and returner to let him go and he has produced in crunch time at WR a good bit.

Vigil - he's at least decent and we're to weak at LBer

Westerman and Hopkins - again we're just to thin and those to have both been decent when called upon.

Although he was my early favorite to win the LG job, he might find himself cut if Jordan keeps showing and Jerry wins the starting job.  Hopkins is more versatile as is the aforementioned Jordan.  

(08-15-2019, 12:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Trivia time:

Billings was the 2nd most heralded dlineman on his college football team. Who was #1? 

(08-15-2019, 12:24 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I think Oakman ended up getting found innocent on those charges

Indeed.

I was hoping an NFL team would give him a tryout (and I think he got one, as he had been playing in Arena Leagues since he came out of Baylor).

Guy had immense talent and a physique that was insane, but previous incidents is what killed him; if he had kept his nose clean, even if found guilty of the charges, he would probably have been in the league right now (albeit suspended).

(08-14-2019, 09:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: 1st priority - Trey Hopkins C/G
Keivarae Russel CB
3rd priority - Nick Vigil LB
2nd priority - Clayton Fejedelem S
Cody Core WR or Alex Erickson WR

that's my list above.

(08-14-2019, 09:53 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I agree with Fred on this: typically a player makes his biggest jump going from rookie to 2nd season with a good bit showing improvement 2nd to 3rd year. Sure there's some late blooming going on here and there but by far if they ain't got it by year 4 all they're gonna do is be average at best.

Having said that who of our 4th camp players are worth keeping and who needs to be turned lose ? Here's the list:

Trey Hopkins C/G
Keivarae Russel CB
Christian Ringo DE
Andrew Billings DT
Christian Westerman G
Nick Vigil LB
Jeff Driskel QB/WR
Clayton Fejedelem S
Cody Core WR
Alex Erickson WR

I left Boyd and Jackson III for obvious reasons.

I feel our past leadership failed quite a bit in hanging onto guys who just didn't have "it" for to long. I'm hoping the new think tank is better in this area.

Bolded I would keep, but I could see Harris making it over Russell.