(09-18-2019, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  You need to say that he played well enough to beat a playoff caliber team in a prime time game.

Sorry. I'm not here to soothe your fragile mind. 

(09-18-2019, 03:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Could you maybe give it a rest with the “SC” crap and accusing me and others of just repeating what the “pundits” say. I haven’t watched ESPN (other than actual games) in about a decade. And I’m perfectly capable of forming my own opinions. Sorry I’m not some hipster that has to be a contrarian and go against something just because. If there’s a certain narrative about a player that’s widely agreed upon by the majority, maybe, just maybe, there’s something to it...

Sure you don't want SC.... I won't because you know for a fact that you do want ESPN, you follow the media and that you are just repeating what they are saying.

You just happen to agree with it. 

Another hypothetical for you:  If the Bengals drafted Lamar Jackson, and we won these past few games, the majority of the pundits will say that he is the "real deal" you will be pleased.  As soon as he fails some of the pundits will then state he isn't as good as people claimed and you will then call them "idiots" for not being able to see how "dynamic" he is. 

So maybe, just maybe, stop trying to lie about it...

(09-18-2019, 05:22 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He didn't make a throw late to win that game.   

He made the throw.  That is all he is capable of doing.  So you can't call that a "fail".

(09-18-2019, 05:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Sorry. I'm not here to soothe your fragile mind. 

Or speak the truth.

I have made my point.  I am through with you for now.

(09-18-2019, 05:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He made the throw.  That is all he is capable of doing.  So you can't call that a "fail".

If you don't win the game, you can't call that a success. 

Remember Fred, it's a team game. If one fails, they all fail. 

(09-18-2019, 05:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Or speak the truth.

I have made my point.  I am through with you for now.

I always speak the truth. 

Problem is, delusional people can't understand the truth. 

(09-18-2019, 03:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Assuming Duke Tobin didn't go to Mike Brown and say the Bengals should invest good $$ into a good veteran OL and LB (or two) and was shut down by Mike Brown.

I am assuming this!

(09-18-2019, 03:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Correct.
Cincinnati is last place in red zone scoring percentage.
They went from scoring a TD in 71% of their red zone appearances in 2018 to just 16.7% so far in 2019.
What's different from 2018 to 2019?
QB is the same. The receiving options are basically the same (AJ Green out but Eifert is back healthy).
The difference is the offensive playcalling.
As frustrating as Lazor was between the 20's, he called a good red zone game.

The Redzone offense concerns me quite a bit the Rams were only 16th in Redzone touchdown percentage.

(09-18-2019, 05:33 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Sure you don't want SC.... I won't because you know for a fact that you do want ESPN, you follow the media and that you are just repeating what they are saying.

You just happen to agree with it. 

Another hypothetical for you:  If the Bengals drafted Lamar Jackson, and we won these past few games, the majority of the pundits will say that he is the "real deal" you will be pleased.  As soon as he fails some of the pundits will then state he isn't as good as people claimed and you will then call them "idiots" for not being able to see how "dynamic" he is. 

So maybe, just maybe, stop trying to lie about it...

Where did this “dynamic” obsession stem from?

(09-18-2019, 05:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I always speak the truth. 

Problem is, delusional people can't understand the truth. 

No you don't.  I have already shown that this statement is false

"He's  has never shown even a flash of being able make the throws necessary to win a game late on a Sunday or Monday night against a playoff quality team. "

He has shown he can make the passes to get us in position for the game winning FG, but the kicker failed him.

He has shown he can make the passes to drive the team for a game winning TD until another players fumbles away the game.

The claim that the ability is not there is a complete lie.  I have provided specific examples to prove it.  The fact that other players fail does nothing to disprove Dalton's ability.

But let me just give you one more chance.  Do you agree that Dalton has played well enough to defeat a playoff team in prime time?

(09-18-2019, 06:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No you don't.  I have already shown that this statement is false

"He's  has never shown even a flash of being able make the throws necessary to win a game late on a Sunday or Monday night against a playoff quality team. "

He has shown he can make the passes to get us in position for the game winning FG, but the kicker failed him.

He has shown he can make the passes to drive the team for a game winning TD until another players fumbles away the game.

The claim that the ability is not there is a complete lie.  I have provided specific examples to prove it.  The fact that other players fail does nothing to disprove Dalton's ability.

But let me just give you one more chance.  Do you agree that Dalton has played well enough to defeat a playoff team in prime time?

So, you don't understand the difference between making the throws early in the game and making the throws late in the game to win it?

You don't understand there's more pressure involved late in the game and defenses are usually more focused when the game is on the line?

(09-18-2019, 06:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But let me just give you one more chance.  Do you agree that Dalton has played well enough to defeat a playoff team in prime time?

Of course he has. He's done it. 

That has nothing to do with actually making a throw or throws AT THE END OF THE GAME TO WIN IT.


How does that simple fact keep escaping you?

You keep reinforcing my point that he's good enough to get there, but not good enough to get over.

(09-18-2019, 06:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where did this “dynamic” obsession stem from?

That is what QBs like Mahomes, Jackson, RGIII, Vick, Murray, Newton and Watson get called.

In the OP he used the term "upside" QB.

In my reply (in which I only mentioned Dalton a little), I laid it all out.

For these QBs the only "upside" they have is that they run faster with the ball when they decide to leave the pocket.  Hence they are more "dynamic" than the traditional pocket passer.  It is a one dimensional way of evaluating the QB.  This one element does change the way DCs have to game plan, however once they are figured out they don't really add any new element to the position at that point.  Add in that the older they get the slower they get plus the less effective they are.

Newton, who I will admit has lasted longer than I thought, is an example of this.  He has been slowing down more and more every year.  He has been getting injured more and more.  His efficiency has been declining and as the year progresses he slows down more.  He has taken some beating out there, so it is not really a surprise.

Of course, he has won playoff games and even played in a SB, so that is impressive, but I don't think the Panthers will make it to another SB with him, which means he won't win one, I could be wrong, but odds are I am not.  I don't think he will make it back because that 1 element he had is no longer there anymore, at least to the extent that it was. 

I see the same thing with these other guys.  They will make highlight reels, which means MVPs, but I don't see them winning SBs.  Especially when they start to lose that element.

(09-18-2019, 06:12 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So, you don't understand the difference between making the throws early in the game and making the throws late in the game to win it?

You don't understand there's more pressure involved late in the game and defenses are usually more focused when the game is on the line?

So making a throw to set up the game winning FG on the last play of the game is not "late in the game"?

Dalton showed he could make that throw.  Bullock just missed the FG from the 25 yard line.

(09-18-2019, 06:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Of course he has. He's done it. 

That has nothing to do with actually making a throw or throws AT THE END OF THE GAME TO WIN IT.


How does that simple fact keep escaping you?

You keep reinforcing my point that he's good enough to get there, but not good enough to get over.

OK, I will be brief on this, but doesn't he have 20 4th quarter comebacks?  I know the answer:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_active.htm

According to this he is 8th in comebacks.  Seems to be capable of making the throws at the end of the game to win them. 

I know you don't like what ifs... however IF the kicker makes those kicks and Green doesn't fumble (which doesn't mean winning either way) he would have even more than 20.  He may not have as many as Philip Rivers, but he would be pretty close.  (I do know that the 2016 season would have been a division win and playoff appearance with an extra 3 wins if not for the kicking game, missing kicks less than 50 yards, Houston, Buffalo and NY Giants).  That would be good enough for 23.

(09-18-2019, 07:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: OK, I will be brief on this, but doesn't he have 20 4th quarter comebacks?  I know the answer:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_active.htm

According to this he is 8th in comebacks.  Seems to be capable of making the throws at the end of the game to win them. 

I know you don't like what ifs... however IF the kicker makes those kicks and Green doesn't fumble (which doesn't mean winning either way) he would have even more than 20.  He may not have as many as Philip Rivers, but he would be pretty close.  (I do know that the 2016 season would have been a division win and playoff appearance with an extra 3 wins if not for the kicking game, missing kicks less than 50 yards, Houston, Buffalo and NY Giants).  That would be good enough for 23.

I see the point you and others are trying to make . If they comeback and win(I.e. Aj catches a td pass) then that was Dalton's comeback but when he fumbles in the red zone that is his and the other 21 players loss. You can't have it both ways.

(09-18-2019, 07:30 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: OK, I will be brief on this, but doesn't he have 20 4th quarter comebacks?  I know the answer:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_active.htm

According to this he is 8th in comebacks.  Seems to be capable of making the throws at the end of the game to win them. 

I know you don't like what ifs... however IF the kicker makes those kicks and Green doesn't fumble (which doesn't mean winning either way) he would have even more than 20.  He may not have as many as Philip Rivers, but he would be pretty close.  (I do know that the 2016 season would have been a division win and playoff appearance with an extra 3 wins if not for the kicking game, missing kicks less than 50 yards, Houston, Buffalo and NY Giants).  That would be good enough for 23.

It has to be prime time.

And the opponenet has to be a playoff team.

And it has to be a one score game at the end. (but for some reason a FG with three minutes left in a 5 point game does not count)

This has happened six times in Andy's 8 year career.  Once (Cards '15) Andy drove the team to tie the game with less than a minute left but the defense let the other team drive for a game winning score.  Two other times Andy has made the throws but a teammate messed up.  Bullock missed a FG from the 25 against the Texans in '16, and Green fumbled at the Texans 20 in '17.

So basically all of Faulks squealing about "NEVER EVER EVER" means "THREE OUT OF SIX" times over 8 years.

(09-18-2019, 07:40 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I see the point you and others are trying to make . If they comeback and win(I.e. Aj catches a td pass) then that was Dalton's comeback but when he fumbles in the red zone that is his and the other 21 players loss. You can't have it both ways.

Actually Faulk is arguing that when Green fumbles or Bullock misses a FG that equals "Andy fails to make the throw to win".

Simple fact is this. I don't like or hate Dalton. I feel like he has been hard to judge. The guy has had a god awful line for some time. Even when we had Whit and Z the center spot was so bad he didn't have 2 seconds to throw the ball. Front office needs to do whatever it takes to get this guy an oline. If not it does not matter who gets under center the results will be the same or worse. I am shock Dalton doesn't have David Carr syndrome from these lines of so many years.

(09-18-2019, 03:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Correct.
Cincinnati is last place in red zone scoring percentage.
They went from scoring a TD in 71% of their red zone appearances in 2018 to just 16.7% so far in 2019.
What's different from 2018 to 2019?
QB is the same. The receiving options are basically the same (AJ Green out but Eifert is back healthy).
The difference is the offensive playcalling.
As frustrating as Lazor was between the 20's, he called a good red zone game.

Lazor had a great red zone package, that was impressive on his part. I always felt confident when he got us down there.

It just didn’t seem to happen much.

This team will win three games max! Duke Tubin needs to be fired and the citizens of Cincinnati need to revolt and demand the Brown family sell the team. This team is awful


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