(09-19-2019, 12:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Good enough? Yes. The thing is, Dalton has shown he can be a really good QB. The problem with Dalton is he can't overcome poor coaching and poor OL play. You give him a good OL, he can be an above average QB. You give him great coaching (which, IMO, he's never had), he can probably overcome poor OL and any other issues.

So, yes, IMO, Dalton is a good enough QB to win with but he's not good enough to do it by himself. 

That’s a lot of excuses and if’s for a 9 year veteran.

(09-19-2019, 12:48 PM)PhilHos Wrote: The past 3 seasons, yes, Dalton was average. Comes with having an OC that has no business being an OC and then being replaced with a bland OC. Not to mention the OL issues, but, Dalton was average the last 3 seasons.

I don't know why that shocks you. I'm sorry that I'm not making shit up about him like the Dalton haters.

This is all those excuses i've been talking about...

And he's been average a lot more than just the last 3 seasons.

(09-19-2019, 12:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s a lot of excuses and if’s for a 9 year veteran.

There not excuses if they're true.

(09-19-2019, 12:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: This is all those excuses i've been talking about...

So, we've had perfectly good coaches and coordinators? Our OL has not been a weakness? QBs play in a vaccuum and are NOT affected by coaching and other players on the team?

Please point out where I said something that was not true.

(09-19-2019, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, we've had perfectly good coaches and coordinators? Our OL has not been a weakness? QBs play in a vaccuum and are NOT affected by coaching and other players on the team?

Please point out where I said something that was not true.

And you think these kinds of problems are exclusive to Dalton and the Bengals alone?

Hell, Andrew Luck just retired at 29 because they let him get beaten and battered for so many years. He still managed to win multiple playoff games though.

(09-19-2019, 12:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And? Does Dalton NOT play the same position as Rodgers or Brady? If i said Dalton is not on the same level as Rodgers and Brady, aren't I still comparing him to QBs who have won Super Bowls? Besides, weren't YOU the one that said the NFL was a "what have you done for me lately" league?

BTW, since Dalton was drafted neither he nor Rodgers has won a Super Bowl. 

But he has won FOUR playoff games. TOUCHE

(09-19-2019, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, we've had perfectly good coaches and coordinators? Our OL has not been a weakness? QBs play in a vaccuum and are NOT affected by coaching and other players on the team?

Please point out where I said something that was not true.

Wait for it...

(09-19-2019, 01:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And you think these kinds of problems are exclusive to Dalton and the Bengals alone?

Hell, Andrew Luck just retired at 29 because they let him get beaten and battered for so many years. He still managed to win multiple playoff games though.

Here it is, Phil. 

(09-19-2019, 01:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And you think these kinds of problems are exclusive to Dalton and the Bengals alone?

Hell, Andrew Luck just retired at 29 because they let him get beaten and battered for so many years. He still managed to win multiple playoff games though.

No, they're not exclusive to Dalton and the Bengals. That said, I blame our playoff issues more on Marvin Lewis than anyone else. There's been like 2 players who've played well in the playoffs under ML. Everyone else on the team - whether they be considered great or not - did not play well.

Like I said, Dalton is not a QB capable of overcoming poor coaching. You can win with him, but not if you're a bad coach.

(09-19-2019, 01:35 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: But he has won FOUR playoff games. TOUCHE

Well, yeah, the dude is a better QB than Dalton. 

BTW, stop comparing Dalton to Rodgers.

(09-19-2019, 01:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, they're not exclusive to Dalton and the Bengals. That said, I blame our playoff issues more on Marvin Lewis than anyone else. There's been like 2 players who've played well in the playoffs under ML. Everyone else on the team - whether they be considered great or not - did not play well.

Like I said, Dalton is not a QB capable of overcoming poor coaching. You can win with him, but not if you're a bad coach.

Andy Dalton threw a pass to AJ Green who was wide open in the endzone against the Texans in 2012. The pass was well over AJs head. 

Marvin Lewis had zip to do with that. Dalton dropped back, made his read, threw the ball and missed him by a large margin. 

(09-19-2019, 01:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Hell, Andrew Luck just retired at 29 because they let him get beaten and battered for so many years. He still managed to win multiple playoff games though.

(09-19-2019, 01:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Wait for it...


Here it is, Phil. 

Ok. And?

Did I say that no QB could not overcome poor coaching or OL issues?

(09-19-2019, 01:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Andy Dalton threw a pass to AJ Green who was wide open in the endzone against the Texans in 2012. The pass was well over AJs head. 

Marvin Lewis had zip to do with that. Dalton dropped back, made his read, threw the ball and missed him by a large margin. 

It wasn't that large a margin.

That said, no ML didn't. However, I said I place the blame on him MORE. Never said, Dalton didn't play a role in the losses.

"Dalton leads the NFL in passing yards (262) and touchdowns (3) and ranks sixth in passer rating (116.9) when under pressure, per PFF. "
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001056558/article/qb-index-week-3-kyler-murray-dak-prescott-surge-in-rankings

(09-19-2019, 04:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: "Dalton leads the NFL in passing yards (262) and touchdowns (3) and ranks sixth in passer rating (116.9) when under pressure, per PFF. "
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001056558/article/qb-index-week-3-kyler-murray-dak-prescott-surge-in-rankings

For a Dalton hater, you sure do post positive things about him a lot. 

(09-19-2019, 06:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: For a Dalton hater, you sure do post positive things about him a lot. 

(09-19-2019, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, we've had perfectly good coaches and coordinators? Our OL has not been a weakness? QBs play in a vaccuum and are NOT affected by coaching and other players on the team?

Please point out where I said something that was not true.

Instead of wading through all the poo, let's take a look at a typical Dalton play. 

2nd and 5 at their own 46 with 1:20 left in the 2nd quarter, 3 timeouts left, down 21-10. 

Dalton drops back and after 2.36 seconds, breaks out to his right. There is no immediate pressure from a defender as he throws the ball. 

He releases the pass...right to a SF defender who is all over Tyler Eifert. Matter of fact, there is a defender right behind Eifert as well. 

Take a look at this pic. The red circle is Eifert and the defender and the green circle is Auden Tate. 


Clearly, Eifert is well covered and Tate is wide open. "HIS OFFENSIVE LINE BROKE DOWN...AND ANYWAY, THERE'S NO WAY HE COULD SEE TATE THERE!!!!!!", is something you might say. So, let's take a look from another angle. 



As you can see from this angle, Eifert is well covered and Tate is wide open...even though he's not capable of getting separation   and he's easily in Dalton's field of vision. 

This is just one example of how Dalton fails to make the most of an opportunity. I could probably make about 5-10 more of these on plays that happened in this game, before this point, because i've watched it several times and seen them. This is also EXACTLY what i was talking about when i made the points that different QBs make different decisions that effect the outcome and how they're perceived. Dalton was able to throw for a lot of yards in this game, but he had to throw a lot to get them and he was greatly assisted by Ross' speed at the end of the game. 

I keep seeing people say..."well...you better not replace him until you have someone better..". That's BS. If you had someone you knew was better, he'd already be starting or the coach would be out of a job. You don't wait to replace a player until you have something better, you replace a player when he's not maximizing this potential physically or with his decisions on the field. 

Sorry about the watermark. I'm not gonna pay to host my images. :)

(09-19-2019, 01:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Andy Dalton threw a pass to AJ Green who was wide open in the endzone against the Texans in 2012. The pass was well over AJs head. 

Marvin Lewis had zip to do with that. Dalton dropped back, made his read, threw the ball and missed him by a large margin. 

There was more than one play in that game.

Not saying Marvin is 100% to blame, but you can't blame the loss on just one play.  For example I am sure you remember that Green was not even targeted once until there ere just 10 minutes left in the third quarter, but after that he had 11 targets and responded with 5 catches for 80 yards.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/02/a-j-green-was-frustrated-by-bengals-game-plan-in-playoff-loss/

Green said this week that the Bengals’ coaches thought they could create mismatches with tight end Jermaine Gresham, and that’s why Gresham got five passes thrown his way in the first half, while Green got zero.



“It’s tough in a big game and you’re the go to guy and you don’t get the ball in the first half. It’s all frustrating,” he said. “They had a game plan that had a matchup problem with Jermaine and they felt like they could go to him. Things happen like that. All games aren’t perfect. That’s one thing we need to build on. We just need to capitalize. Not only getting me the ball, but just making some of the big plays.”

(09-21-2019, 08:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Instead of wading through all the poo, let's take a look at a typical Dalton play. 

2nd and 5 at their own 46 with 1:20 left in the 2nd quarter, 3 timeouts left, down 21-10. 

Dalton drops back and after 2.36 seconds, breaks out to his right. There is no immediate pressure from a defender as he throws the ball. 

He releases the pass...right to a SF defender who is all over Tyler Eifert. Matter of fact, there is a defender right behind Eifert as well. 

Take a look at this pic. The red circle is Eifert and the defender and the green circle is Auden Tate. 


Clearly, Eifert is well covered and Tate is wide open. "HIS OFFENSIVE LINE BROKE DOWN...AND ANYWAY, THERE'S NO WAY HE COULD SEE TATE THERE!!!!!!", is something you might say. So, let's take a look from another angle. 



As you can see from this angle, Eifert is well covered and Tate is wide open...even though he's not capable of getting separation   and he's easily in Dalton's field of vision. 

This is just one example of how Dalton fails to make the most of an opportunity. I could probably make about 5-10 more of these on plays that happened in this game, before this point, because i've watched it several times and seen them. This is also EXACTLY what i was talking about when i made the points that different QBs make different decisions that effect the outcome and how they're perceived. Dalton was able to throw for a lot of yards in this game, but he had to throw a lot to get them and he was greatly assisted by Ross' speed at the end of the game. 

I keep seeing people say..."well...you better not replace him until you have someone better..". That's BS. If you had someone you knew was better, he'd already be starting or the coach would be out of a job. You don't wait to replace a player until you have something better, you replace a player when he's not maximizing this potential physically or with his decisions on the field. 

Sorry about the watermark. I'm not gonna pay to host my images. :)

Just my two cents.  If Andy throws back across his body there to Tate, 54 has a chance to make a play on that ball, with a possiblity of the man on Eifert getting there as well.  Scrambling right, I think either throw is risky, but the throw to Eifert could be more accurately placed.

(09-22-2019, 12:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There was more than one play in that game.

Not saying Marvin is 100% to blame, but you can't blame the loss on just one play.  For example I am sure you remember that Green was not even targeted once until there ere just 10 minutes left in the third quarter, but after that he had 11 targets and responded with 5 catches for 80 yards.

True. But it goes to my point that when a throw is there and needs to be made in the most crucial moment, in those types of games, Dalton misses. 

(09-22-2019, 12:52 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Just my two cents.  If Andy throws back across his body there to Tate, 54 has a chance to make a play on that ball, with a possiblity of the man on Eifert getting there as well.  Scrambling right, I think either throw is risky, but the throw to Eifert could be more accurately placed.

There's no way possible that the guy running with Eifert is able to make a play on the ball if it's thrown to Tate, 20 feet behind them. There's not a human on earth with the physical abilities to do that. 

The only way it could be more accurately placed towards Eifert, is to throw it away.

EDIT: My bad, i was looking at the wrong defender. #54 is almost standing flat footed while Tate is running away from him.