One of the most troubleing aspects of this years team is the disapearance of geno Atkins and carlos Dunlap. These guys have beena couple of my favorite players for years. I'd argue Dunlap has been our most underrated player over the past few years.

This year both guys are healthy. Their decline has been much to fast to be just based on age. I can understand how some of our good DBs (Jackson, Kirkpatrick, Bates) seemtop look bad due to bad schemes or coaching. They often look lost and many of the big plays they allow are due more to busteed coverage than just getting beat man-to-man. But on the D-line Carlos and geno need to just have to wi more one-on-one battles.

Before this season Dunlap had six straight years with at least 20 QB hits and 7.5 sacks. Over the previous 3 years Dunlap had more tipped passes (30) than any othe D-lineman. This year he is on pace for 2 sacks, 9 QB hits, and 2 tipped passes.

Before this season Atkins had 4 straight seasons with at least 9 sacks an 19 QB hits. This year he is on pace for 6 sacks and 11 QB hits.

Even if we conduct a "fire sale" after the season I doubt we get rif ot these two guys. They have bee too good too long. I can't help but believe that they both have a good bit of gas left in the tank, and they did not get lazy before just because they got contract extensions. We just need to get their "hearts" back in the game.

needsome serious coaching changes on the dfensive side of the ball.

Good point. Also look at guys like Hubbard and Lawson. They showed potential at various points and aren't producing.

The lack of pressure our defensive line generates is crazy low.

(11-11-2019, 11:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Good point. Also look at guys like Hubbard and Lawson. They showed potential at various points and aren't producing.

The lack of pressure our defensive line generates is crazy low.

Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

(11-11-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

Agreed on Lawson who's in and out of the lineup.

I wonder if Hubbard is just less productive in higher usage? Essentially that stat shows he's doubled his playing time. Maybe he's more effective just coming in and flying around in short bursts?

Wonder how Geno and Carlos snap counts compare? (I know Carlos has missed a game or two.)

We should have traded them at the deadline.

(11-11-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

These stats can be a bit misleading. We are 3rd (in terms of least) in the NFL in opponent passing attempts per game, that is because we are 1st (in terms of most) in the NFL in rushing attempts against. We only have 29.2 passing attempts per game against us this season compared to last year where we were passed against the 7th most in the NFL at 36.5 passing attempts per game. Over the course of a season that is roughly 112 rush attempts not taking to account snaps played on passing downs versus rushing down. 

Has there been a little regression? Maybe. Sacks are often viewed as a bit of luck so I'd be curious about his pressure stats, but I think as much of the issue is teams are just running over us.

At least they aren't taking up a lot of cap space.


o_o

The Rams game is the only game I've watched in the last month or so. During that game I watch Dunlap vs Whitworth several times. It looked like they both agreed they weren't going to go at it that day. Quite frankly I think there's some loafing going on with our best D Linemen...

Which is my case for firing Taylor and Company...the players know this staff is a joke.

(11-11-2019, 12:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Which is my case for firing Taylor and Company...the players know this staff is a joke.

Players also know the front office is a joke. 

Dunlap and Atkins haven't made meaningful plays
In years. I said that much in the off season

(11-11-2019, 01:28 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Dunlap and Atkins haven't made meaningful plays
In years. I said that much in the off season

You were wrong about that. 

If I remember correctly your argument consisted of making up some obtuse definition of "meaningful". 

(11-11-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

Well he's got 7 snaps to get 3 sacks and 3 QB hits.... Better get him in the lineup asap!

(11-11-2019, 01:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You were wrong about that. 

If I remember correctly your argument consisted of making up some obtuse definition of "meaningful". 

Ive questioned Dunlaps production for years here 
Every off season hes making some silly prediction about 
Him setting a sack record only to get his typical 
7.5 
Atkins hasn't had meaningful plays for years 
If you don't agree with my definition of "meaningful" 
That's on you . 

(11-11-2019, 12:04 PM)jason Wrote: The Rams game is the only game I've watched in the last month or so. During that game I watch Dunlap vs Whitworth several times. It looked like they both agreed they weren't going to go at it that day. Quite frankly I think there's some loafing going on with our best D Linemen...

"I'm getting paid either way"

(11-11-2019, 01:55 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Ive questioned Dunlaps production for years here 
Every off season hes making some silly prediction about 
Him setting a sack record only to get his typical 
7.5 
Atkins hasn't had meaningful plays for years 
If you don't agree with my definition of "meaningful" 
That's on you . 

I used to love watching these guys play....and for the past few seasons is quite obvious the motivation is gone and talent has nose dived. I chuckle when I hear people say the D line is the strength of the D....WTF?? These guys blow! I only like Billings honestly. 
There are Free Agents making more of an impact with their teams then these two loafers.. just picking up a huge gamecheck and not interested in what ZT is slinging at everyone. Add to that is the fact that they have never been vocal leaders for this D. No fire or passion which is what a good D needs to be successful . With all the drama set aside I miss Adam Jones and Vontaze...at least they gave a shit and wanted to win games.

Geno and Billings are probably the best 3T NT Combination in the NFL according to PFF. Dunlap and Hubbard are both having good seasons as well according to PFF.
Bates and Williams have been terrible.
Preston Brown is God awful in everything and so is Vigil. They suck there the problem blame them.

(11-11-2019, 11:20 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Good point. Also look at guys like Hubbard and Lawson. They showed potential at various points and aren't producing.

The lack of pressure our defensive line generates is crazy low.

could be a scheme thing to get these guys in 1 on 1 battles... (or not get these guys into 1 on 1 battles.)

(11-11-2019, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Lawson has been injured, but here is an interesting stat on Hubbard.

2018...... 508 defensive snaps, 6 sacks, 9 QB hits
2019...... 501 defensive snaps, 3 sacks, 6 QB hits

Could this possibly be just a bunch of bad coaches coaching badly and causing the entire team to regress?

The DL troubles are just a microcosm of what is happening with the entire team, save for special teams.

 

I don't think any player on the Bengals can be fairly evaluated until changes are made at coaching staff, at least defensively.