(03-02-2020, 03:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think it's more accurate to say Hart improved in the passing game, which is true.
When comparing Hart's 2019 to 2018 seasons on PFF...

2019:
overall = 57.7
pass block = 68.7 (715 snaps)
run block = 46.3 (371 snaps)
penalties = 8
sacks allowed = 6

2018:
overall = 57.1
pass block = 62.9 (651)
run block = 56.1 (343)
penalties = 11
sacks allowed = 10

So Bobby Hart did better as a pass blocker, but he performed worse against the run.
And, as was accurately mentioned by others, the horrid performance of the OL in the first 8 games likely doomed any run blocking rating any player would have by year's end.

There's a (small) chance that if the Bengals stick to the directional run blocking that made them successful in second half of 2019 and keep up the pass blocking, Hart (along with rest of the OL) could actually be decent with an upgrade or two.

That's fair to say he improved from 2018 in some areas.  To say he had a VERY good season is false. 

Which is the title to this thread. 

I can not like Hart's play and still be "hater free".

I want to see better play out of this team for a whole season.  Not some isolated games and stats.

Like I said before.  He's okay for depth but not someone I'd like to see starting unless huge leaps and bounds are made going into the season.

His career as a whole has been pretty bad.  Is it possible for him to improve?  Yep. 

Are the percentages in his favor for him to get to the level needed as a good starter?  Not really.

Anyway I'm just worried they're going to waste the offensive talent behind a bad line.  Hart is part of it.  Not the only one though.

I liked Price a whole lot coming out of college and wanted him to anchor the line.  Instead he's been God awful and not proven anything.

That being said... am I a Price hater for saying he's bad?  Nope.  Not really.  Until he proves differently that's exactly what he's been.

I'm just worried that they won't get much in the LBers and we'll need to outscore other teams.

Well you're sure as hell not going to do that unless the line gets good, and fast! 

We don't have time to F around with improved, yet still not good, players.

Let's hope all of you football gurus are correct about blocking being the main issue and not lack of talent as well.

(03-02-2020, 07:33 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That's fair to say he improved from 2018 in some areas.  To say he had a VERY good season is false. 

Which is the title to this thread. 

I can not like Hart's play and still be "hater free".

I want to see better play out of this team for a whole season.  Not some isolated games and stats.

Like I said before.  He's okay for depth but not someone I'd like to see starting unless huge leaps and bounds are made going into the season.

His career as a whole has been pretty bad.  Is it possible for him to improve?  Yep. 

Are the percentages in his favor for him to get to the level needed as a good starter?  Not really.

Anyway I'm just worried they're going to waste the offensive talent behind a bad line.  Hart is part of it.  Not the only one though.

I liked Price a whole lot coming out of college and wanted him to anchor the line.  Instead he's been God awful and not proven anything.

That being said... am I a Price hater for saying he's bad?  Nope.  Not really.  Until he proves differently that's exactly what he's been.

I'm just worried that they won't get much in the LBers and we'll need to outscore other teams.

Well you're sure as hell not going to do that unless the line gets good, and fast! 

We don't have time to F around with improved, yet still not good, players.

Let's hope all of you football gurus are correct about blocking being the main issue and not lack of talent as well.

I agree with most of what you say here, especially about Hart and Price. One thing is, as bad as our OT's were last season,
our Guards were worse. Jordan could improve, maybe Price I don't know but Miller hasn't been anything special and he is 
older with less upside. I would love to get both a Guard and an OT in FA but doubt this happens.

Actually if we got Conklin and a LB'er the Draft is deep at Guard. Might be the best way to go.

(03-02-2020, 07:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree with most of what you say here, especially about Hart and Price. One thing is, as bad as our OT's were last season,
our Guards were worse. Jordan could improve, maybe Price I don't know but Miller hasn't been anything special and he is 
older with less upside. I would love to get both a Guard and an OT in FA but doubt this happens.

Actually if we got Conklin and a LB'er the Draft is deep at Guard. Might be the best way to go.

That's the thing.  Jordan, I'm sure was a project depth player.  That's okay and that's probably where he should be.

I'd even be okay with Hart as a backup and still be on the team.

I hardly think that makes me a hater of either one of those guys.

Price on the other hand is a straight up bust at this point.

Hopefully they can get him into a position and at least contribute somehow.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if he was cut though either. 

Just like when Ogbuehi was looking really bad they kept pushing when they should have just cut bait.

Really most of these guys aren't very good.  Your whole line doesn't have to be.  At least a few should be though.

That's why so many people are tired of hearing about improvement in guys who shouldn't even be starting anyways.

Which is my point.  We better get something out of Jonah Williams fast or they're in trouble here.

Pretty sad really when Glenn scores out higher than most of these guys but I feel shouldn't be re-signed here.

Perhaps Fred Johnson is a bright spot.  Who knows. LOL

(03-02-2020, 07:33 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote:  am I a Price hater for saying he's bad?  Nope.  Not really.  Until he proves differently that's exactly what he's been.

Only problem is that you refuse to acknowledge when these players actually do prove differently.  Hart could give up zero sacks and commit zero penalties in 2020 and you'd still claim that he sucks.  You have invested too much energy in shitting on him to ever admit that he is playing well.

(03-02-2020, 07:33 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That's fair to say he improved from 2018 in some areas. 

(03-02-2020, 08:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only problem is that you refuse to acknowledge when these players actually do prove differently.  Hart could give up zero sacks and commit zero penalties in 2020 and you'd still claim that he sucks.  You have invested too much energy in shitting on him to ever admit that he is playing well.

Uh okay.

Don't be making up future scenarios.  Give it a rest Fred.

Hart improved from 2018.  

Part of the issue here is we changed blocking schemes during the season. It would be interesting to see player rankings before/after the switch.

(03-02-2020, 07:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree with most of what you say here, especially about Hart and Price. One thing is, as bad as our OT's were last season,
our Guards were worse. Jordan could improve, maybe Price I don't know but Miller hasn't been anything special and he is 
older with less upside. I would love to get both a Guard and an OT in FA but doubt this happens.

Actually if we got Conklin and a LB'er the Draft is deep at Guard. Might be the best way to go.

Hearing there will be many suitors for Conklin.
Which translates to no way in hell he is a Bengal unfortunately.

(03-02-2020, 08:01 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That's the thing.  Jordan, I'm sure was a project depth player.  That's okay and that's probably where he should be.

I'd even be okay with Hart as a backup and still be on the team.

I hardly think that makes me a hater of either one of those guys.

Price on the other hand is a straight up bust at this point.

Hopefully they can get him into a position and at least contribute somehow.

I wouldn't lose any sleep if he was cut though either. 

Just like when Ogbuehi was looking really bad they kept pushing when they should have just cut bait.

Really most of these guys aren't very good.  Your whole line doesn't have to be.  At least a few should be though.

That's why so many people are tired of hearing about improvement in guys who shouldn't even be starting anyways.

Which is my point.  We better get something out of Jonah Williams fast or they're in trouble here.

Pretty sad really when Glenn scores out higher than most of these guys but I feel shouldn't be re-signed here.

Perhaps Fred Johnson is a bright spot.  Who knows. LOL

Jordan was a rookie man, and a 4th round pick so we need to give him a bit of a pass. He did improve as the year went on.

He isn't like Og or Price that just got worse. Price is still young and shown greatness in college. He has short arms and sometimes
this is a problem for Lineman early in their careers until they figure it out how to minimize this weakness. Jonah is definitely key but
so is Hopkins brother. We finally got a decent Center and how the hell long have we been asking for this?

Fred Johnson could be a diamond in the rough but we cannot bet on him being such.

Honestly I agree with all your points, but there was improvement under Turner as the year went on and that gives me hope.

(03-02-2020, 09:24 PM)Joelist Wrote: Part of the issue here is we changed blocking schemes during the season. It would be interesting to see player rankings before/after the switch.

We need to add more directional drive blockers.

Keep this up, pretty damn clear.

(03-02-2020, 09:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hearing there will be many suitors for Conklin.
Which translates to no way in hell he is a Bengal unfortunately.

Correct. I think Glasgow is the most likely lineman for us. If we go this way and add a LB'er I would probably go for a RT like 
Josh Jones in the 2nd or a Corner if we move on from Kirkpatrick. Everything really depends on FA but Conklin IS highly unlikely.

(02-28-2020, 07:11 PM)Nickslycat Wrote: Trey Hopkins 5th season 1,097 snaps 2 penalties 4 sacks grade 62.4


G John Jerry 10th season 445 snaps 2 penalties 8 sacks 55.6 grade
G Michael Jordan 2nd season 648 snaps 6 penalties 6 sacks 43.7 grade
G John Miller 6th season 779 snaps 3 penalties 2 sacks 58.6 grade

T Fred Johnson 2nd season 144 snaps 2 penalties 0 sacks 62.6 grade
T Cordy Glenn 9th season 291 snaps 0 penalties 4 sacks 68.4 grade
T Bobby Hart 6th season 1,086 snaps 8 penalties 6 sacks 57.7 grade
T Isaiah Prince 2nd season 70 snaps 2 penalties 1 sack 45.6 grade
T Jonah Williams 2nd season N/A


This is why the Bengals were the worst team in the league.  The entire line needs to be upgraded.
Hart sucks.  He would not start on any playoff team.  Is that not the goal?

Didn't former beloved Bengal Marshall Newhouse end up starting on a play-off team this year?

(03-04-2020, 03:05 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Didn't former beloved Bengal Marshall Newhouse end up starting on a play-off team this year?

Who was Newhouse on, I forgot?

(02-27-2020, 04:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF keeps track of some interesting stats, but their individual player rankings are useless.  And I am sure his run block stats look below average unless you can get splits separating the first half of the season from the second.

Pressures allowed is a very important stat.  Football Outsiders tallies "blown blocks" on both run plays and pass plays.  On pass plays they include all blown blocks that lead to a sack, pressure, hurry, holding penalty, or QB hit.  But I won't have the numbers until they release their almanac in June.

The stat I would really like to see is the NextGen "Pass blocking win percentage".  It uses the GPS tracking devices on the individual players to determine when a pass rusher gets closer to the QB than the pass blocker.  The split is 2.5 seconds.  The blocker wins if he holds his block longer.  The rusher wins if he gets by the blocker before that.  Unfortunately all I can find is the top ten for OTs and Hart is not among them.

I like the thread and your balanced analysis of the stats on hand Fred.

Thanks

(02-27-2020, 05:29 PM)Synric Wrote: Bobby Hart didnt have a bad second half of the season.

The first half the offense struggled as a whole because the outside stretch runs werent doing anything and lack of points gave opposing defenses more chances to Tee Off as pass rushers creating more sacks and pressures. Second half of the year the run game forced defenses to play run first but lack of receiving threats forced the QB to hang on to the ball which created sacks and pressures.

Which is why we could use an additional WR threat besides AJ and Ross - so that we have a better chance of stretching the field and having a relatively healthy receiver corps.

(03-04-2020, 03:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Who was Newhouse on, I forgot?

He started for the Patriots, but only due to injured starter (1st round rookie Isaiah Wynn).

(03-04-2020, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He started for the Patriots, but only due to injured starter (1st round rookie Isaiah Wynn).

Ahhh, thanks Fred.

(03-02-2020, 09:10 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Uh okay.

Don't be making up future scenarios.  Give it a rest Fred.

Hart improved from 2018.  

He improved from one of the worst tackles in team history to regular run of the mill bad.

I view him as a bottom tier starter or top shelf backup. Anthony Collins was better for us.

He went from Really crappy to just crappy. We still need an upgrade at right tackle. Big Willie he is not.

(03-11-2020, 01:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He improved from one of the worst tackles in team history to regular run of the mill bad.

I view him as a bottom tier starter or top shelf backup. Anthony Collins was better for us.

Most fans would be okay keeping Hart for depth only basis.

Though if your overall perception doesn't align with the public defender's parameter stats, it means you'd shit on said player if they were awesome.

Wrong.

It's kind of funny that the guy who likes to remind all of us what "reality" is and isn't, then proceeds to make up fake scenarios and the reactions to fake scenarios. LOL

(03-11-2020, 05:03 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Most fans would be okay keeping Hart for depth only basis.

Though if your overall perception doesn't align with the public defender's parameter stats, it means you'd shit on said player if they were awesome.

Wrong.

It's kind of funny that the guy who likes to remind all of us what "reality" is and isn't, then proceeds to make up fake scenarios and the reactions to fake scenarios. LOL

It is a bit ironic.

(03-11-2020, 05:03 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: It's kind of funny that the guy who likes to remind all of us what "reality" is and isn't, then proceeds to make up fake scenarios and the reactions to fake scenarios. LOL

They are not "fake scenarios".  


I saw how fans kept shitting on Peko even though he was playing well, putting up great stats, and getting praise from other coaches around the league.

I saw fans claiming Whitworth should move to OG because he could not handle speed rushers.

I saw fans claim Leon Hall was too slow to play CB.

I saw fans claim that Justin Smith was garbage and would not start for other NFL teams.

I saw fans claim Andre Smith was garbage when he was playing very well for us.

There is a long history around here of fans who start hating a player and then refuse to acknowledge when the player performs very well.

I post facts about sacks per snap and you reply with "I don't care how often our QB gets sacked.  All that matters is how I think Bobby looks."