(03-25-2020, 10:53 PM)J24 Wrote: You're making a judgement over one season?  You have to judge players based off more than one season. + Since when is PFF the only thing were judging a player on? For example let's look at Josh Bynes yes his numbers are superior to Vigil but they both played different roles. One was a sub package run stuffer(Bynes) the other was a 3 down LB. Will the Bengals be able to hide Bynes in pass situations like the Ravens did. Or will they use him like what they did with Preston Brown which ended up badly for all parties involved.

PFF certainly isn't the only thing we can use to judge players on.  However, "X isn't an upgrade over Y because I say so" isn't really a discussion point.  Gotta bring more to the table than that.

It's the job of the coaches and FO to identify players that will work in their schemes to upgrade the roster.  If they're signing guys over top of guys currently on the roster, it's because they feel those players will work better in their schemes.  Some of these guys will probably surprise, both for good and for bad.  

What Shawn Williams, WJIII, Vigil, and company did years ago in Paul Guenther's defense is pretty much irrelevant because they don't play in Paul Guenther's defense anymore.  We have seen one year of those guys in Lou Anarumo's defense, so that's what we have to base their performance and ability to produce within the scheme on.  It doesn't necessarily mean these guys can't produce in a different scheme.  However, they performed poorly in the current scheme so the FO is bringing in players that they expect to perform better.

Our LB's sucked last year against both the run and the pass.  A guy that can at least play the run is an upgrade.  If they can stop the run and get to 3rd and long, they can get Bynes off the field.  Plus, he's a smart player and disciplined in his assignments and should be able to help the younger guys.  

(03-25-2020, 10:53 PM)J24 Wrote: You're making a judgement over one season?  You have to judge players based off more than one season. + Since when is PFF the only thing were judging a player on? For example let's look at Josh Bynes yes his numbers are superior to Vigil but they both played different roles. One was a sub package run stuffer(Bynes) the other was a 3 down LB. Will the Bengals be able to hide Bynes in pass situations like the Ravens did. Or will they use him like what they did with Preston Brown which ended up badly for all parties involved.
1.) Yes we were active in free agency but where did we improve on the roster? Wayne's & Alexander are not improvements over Dennard or Kirkpatrick. Their not down grades but not improvements either.
2.) Neither CB, S, or NT were on anyone improvement list except for sunset on the nose tackle. Still the Bengals needed a RT to replace Hart they haven't signed one so far, they needed a 3 down LB haven't signed one so far, they needed a LG haven't signed one so far, and they needed a RG but yet only signed a guy who had a small stretch of success in his career who by the way has never played that position in the NFL so far.
So let me ask you this; how is not addressing the major issues on this team actually improving the team?  It's like fixing the sound system on a sinking boat ok that's nice and all but what about the giant hole in the center of the freaking boat. Can we get some flexy tape on this *****.

1.) Bell graded out as a 54 in pass coverage last season according to PFF.
2.)in there Careers Bell has given up 10 TDs to only 1 INT while Williams gave 12 TDs but also has 12 INTs. Which is better?
3.) Even if we Bell is better than Williams and Wayne's is better than Kirkpatrick the Margin isn't that significant at the position that we significantly upgraded the position to make the Defense that much better. 
However if we used the money that we used on Bell & Wayne on a guy like Corey Littleton or a Joe Schobert then we would have improved our biggest weakness on the team by a significant amount.

You're going to be so baffled next season, wondering why our defense is so much better than it was last year.

(03-25-2020, 11:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: PFF certainly isn't the only thing we can use to judge players on.  However, "X isn't an upgrade over Y because I say so" isn't really a discussion point.  Gotta bring more to the table than that.

It's the job of the coaches and FO to identify players that will work in their schemes to upgrade the roster.  If they're signing guys over top of guys currently on the roster, it's because they feel those players will work better in their schemes.  Some of these guys will probably surprise, both for good and for bad.  

What Shawn Williams, WJIII, Vigil, and company did years ago in Paul Guenther's defense is pretty much irrelevant because they don't play in Paul Guenther's defense anymore.  We have seen one year of those guys in Lou Anarumo's defense, so that's what we have to base their performance and ability to produce within the scheme on.  It doesn't necessarily mean these guys can't produce in a different scheme.  However, they performed poorly in the current scheme so the FO is bringing in players that they expect to perform better.

Our LB's sucked last year against both the run and the pass.  A guy that can at least play the run is an upgrade.  If they can stop the run and get to 3rd and long, they can get Bynes off the field.  Plus, he's a smart player and disciplined in his assignments and should be able to help the younger guys.  

Bengals have been one of the worst defenses in the NFL over the past 2 seasons. They have been bad against the run for the past 3 years.

I am perfectly fine with heavy turnover on that side of the ball.

(03-25-2020, 11:13 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The signing of Reader and then the Bengals names on several other big FAs is a signal. They want to win. 
Combine that with picking Burrow and Brady/Brees wont last much longer in the NFL the timing is Ripe for a New no 1 QB to take over the league. 

Quite a few of you need to eat some crow! I have been faithful all along that this off season they would give ZT what he wants in order to succeed.  Just like with Marvin. Last year was just to short and not enough time to focus on players and coaches and draft. 
I'm pretty stoked! 

It’s already happened. His name is Patrick Mahomes. I’m hoping Burrow can be a worthy adversary to him in the AFC in a couple years though.

As long as we don't have to read yet another Hobson article about how "athletic" these guys are I'll remain happy.. If he does that and says they're soooo athletic our season will be doomed. DOOMED I SAY! 

(03-25-2020, 05:22 PM)BURROWorBUST Wrote: Yeah, can't wait to hear those jackals trying to take credit for it. 

I’m sure the mainstream media won’t give the Bengals any credit. I know this doesn’t necessarily fit this thread but I wanna share a very interesting video a Browns fan did about the Bengals and Burrow.

https://youtu.be/C86-AA9B3Mo

From Bengals.com:

"I guess they said enough is enough and drew a line in the sand and they went and got some guys that can play the game and love the game," said Bell from his off-season home in Miami, waiting for the Bengals to make it official. "It creates a standard, it creates a culture. Guys that have been there in the atmosphere and they just want to bring the atmosphere to Cincinnati and that's what we plan to do."

It's pretty hard to not be stoked right now as a Bengals fan.

(03-26-2020, 01:06 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: From Bengals.com:

"I guess they said enough is enough and drew a line in the sand and they went and got some guys that can play the game and love the game," said Bell from his off-season home in Miami, waiting for the Bengals to make it official. "It creates a standard, it creates a culture. Guys that have been there in the atmosphere and they just want to bring the atmosphere to Cincinnati and that's what we plan to do."

It's pretty hard to not be stoked right now as a Bengals fan.

1. He probably didn't have to do this in order to know what this team needed to be successful, but I wonder if Zac didn't poll players on what they thought the team needed. 

2. I wonder how much the prospect of the Bengals drafting Joe Burrow helped make us a more appealing team for FAs. 

The Bengals were clearly tired of getting run all over on defense.

Message received loud and clear.

(03-25-2020, 10:53 PM)J24 Wrote: So let me ask you this; how is not addressing the major issues on this team actually improving the team?  It's like fixing the sound system on a sinking boat ok that's nice and all but what about the giant hole in the center of the freaking boat. Can we get some flexy tape on this *****.

1.) Bell graded out as a 54 in pass coverage last season according to PFF.
2.)in there Careers Bell has given up 10 TDs to only 1 INT while Williams gave 12 TDs but also has 12 INTs. Which is better?
3.) Even if we Bell is better than Williams and Wayne's is better than Kirkpatrick the Margin isn't that significant at the position that we significantly upgraded the position to make the Defense that much better. 
However if we used the money that we used on Bell & Wayne on a guy like Corey Littleton or a Joe Schobert then we would have improved our biggest weakness on the team by a significant amount.

I don't even know where to start with you J24? Let's simplify this.
I'll take the Bengals coaching staff and the players they felt they needed to be brought in to fit in their systems over you just giving everyone your opinion that they didn't really upgrade anywhere.
I mean seriously???? What makes you an authority over the Bengals coaches and FO?

At the minimum using raw numbers, every defensive player they signed has a history of being good to above average tacklers! Guess what?
The players leaving their defense couldn't tackle anybody!! Did you watch the same games as me by chance???

And, since when is it better to pay(Overpay) a LB like Schobert and give them the same kind of money as a starting DB such as Waynes?
You'd have rather them spent that money on a LB? Are you kidding me?
The NFL values LB franchise tags almost as badly as Running backs.
The franchise tags for DB's are up there with the Left tackles and WRs. Everyone seems to realize the importance of the DB over the LB position except you. That's extortion what those LBers got.

And in regards to Vonn vs Williams, it's not even close J24.
In the last 4 years, Williams has 66 stops and 59 missed tackles. That's almost a 1:1 ratio. For a strong safety????
On the contrary, Bell had 107 stops to just 33 missed tackles. That's better than a 3:1 ratio. That's good for a Strong Safety!
And, he's 3 years younger than Williams.
He's not the free safety, he's the strong safety. He needs to be able to tackle in the back end and come down into the box when needed to either blitz or tackle someone.
Like I said, it's not even close.

I have faith in the Bengals coaching staff until proven otherwise.

Marv always got credit for getting Mike to change.

How much credit does Zac get for this? It seems like somebody had a plan to tank last year and reset this year with a top pick and tons of cap space. If that person was Zac, he may wind up being better than any of us imagined.

(03-25-2020, 11:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Hopefully he either grows in the play calling department or hands over those duties to Brian Callahan so he can coach...

I’m sure that the roster upgrade will make him look better.

I don't care what has really happened to Mike Brown to make him suddenly abandon his ways, I'm just happy that he finally has. 29 years of his old ways has been weighing on my fandom of his father.

This is a great signing for the team. Williams is now expendable and tradeable. We could use the draft pick.

We've only got one LBer worthy of starting and he was so-so in his rookie season. I know he ended the year playing better, but I look at the competition the team faced in the second half of the season and I say something would have been terribly wrong if he didn't looked better in those games.

LB followed by OL remain the team's weakest positions, just like last off-season and the year before. Draft could end up being QB, LB, OL, LB, OL, LB or some combination like that.

Somehow I just don't see Dalton being on the team with his current contract come the end of the draft.

(03-26-2020, 02:23 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't care what has really happened to Mike Brown to make him suddenly abandon his ways, I'm just happy that he finally has. 29 years of his old ways has been weighing on my fandom of his father.

This is a great signing for the team. Williams is now expendable and tradeable. We could use the draft pick.

We've only got one LBer worthy of starting and he was so-so in his rookie season. I know he ended the year playing better, but I look at the competition the team faced in the second half of the season and I say something would have been terribly wrong if he didn't looked better in those games.

LB followed by OL remain the team's weakest positions, just like last off-season and the year before. Draft could end up being QB, LB, OL, LB, OL, LB or some combination like that.

Somehow I just don't see Dalton being on the team with his current contract come the end of the draft.

I don't think it makes Williams expendable, I think it makes Williams more of a hybrid safety/LB as others have said in the thread. That gives you Pratt, Josh Bynes, Williams and whatever LB they draft. It is certainly an improvement over last year's group.

(03-26-2020, 01:56 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marv always got credit for getting Mike to change.

How much credit does Zac get for this? It seems like somebody had a plan to tank last year and reset this year with a top pick and tons of cap space. If that person was Zac, he may wind up being better than any of us imagined.

Maybe Zac caused a change or maybe the change happened before and resulted in a coaching change. Who knows.

So far though, as a coach, we haven't seen much of anything to cheer Zac about. Only two wins was significantly worse than the previous coach. Maybe his orders were to lose, lose, lose and get the 1st pick while looking like you are trying hard to win, in which case Zac gets an A+ for his acting skills.

 

(03-26-2020, 02:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I don't think it makes Williams expendable, I think it makes Williams more of a hybrid safety/LB as others have said in the thread. That gives you Pratt, Josh Bynes, Williams and whatever LB they draft. It is certainly an improvement over last year's group.

Possibly, and certainly Williams would be decent at covering RBs or TEs, but I tend to think that playing a 3rd safety down in the box is more for downs where you are fairly certain it's going to be a pass play. In the running game, how good is Williams at shedding blocks?

I really don't know much of anything about Bynes. Is he really a legit starting LBer? Or is he just better than Vigil so we'll take him?

I also look at the fact that we seem to have a couple of LBers miss multiple games lately. I wouldn't mind seeing 3 LBers drafted.

 

(03-26-2020, 02:23 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't care what has really happened to Mike Brown to make him suddenly abandon his ways, I'm just happy that he finally has. 29 years of his old ways has been weighing on my fandom of his father.

This is a great signing for the team. Williams is now expendable and tradeable. We could use the draft pick.

We've only got one LBer worthy of starting and he was so-so in his rookie season. I know he ended the year playing better, but I look at the competition the team faced in the second half of the season and I say something would have been terribly wrong if he didn't looked better in those games.

LB followed by OL remain the team's weakest positions, just like last off-season and the year before. Draft could end up being QB, LB, OL, LB, OL, LB or some combination like that.

Somehow I just don't see Dalton being on the team with his current contract come the end of the draft.

Bynes is going to start. Even if we draft a LB in the 2nd. He graded out at 76.2 last season by PFF.

(03-26-2020, 02:27 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I don't think it makes Williams expendable, I think it makes Williams more of a hybrid safety/LB as others have said in the thread. That gives you Pratt, Josh Bynes, Williams and whatever LB they draft. It is certainly an improvement over last year's group.

Shawn Williams is at his best when he's playing cover 2 or overhang defender (not cover 2 but not in the box) that is why he looked better in 2017 and 2018 instead of 2019 when they asked him to play closer to the Line. Vonn Bell is at his best in the box as a run defender and blitzer but isnt as good when you start playing him deeper.

I would guess with Lou using alot of single high sets Bates and Bell would be the starters but during 3 safety looks (Hybrid LB/S) Williams would be back deeper with Bates and Bell would be in the box.

(03-26-2020, 03:18 AM)Synric Wrote: Shawn Williams is at his best when he's playing cover 2 or overhang defender (not cover 2 but not in the box) that is why he looked better in 2017 and 2018 instead of 2019 when they asked him to play closer to the Line. Vonn Bell is at his best in the box as a run defender and blitzer but isnt as good when you start playing him deeper.

I would guess with Lou using alot of single high sets Bates and Bell would be the starters but during 3 safety looks (Hybrid LB/S) Williams would be back deeper with Bates and Bell would be in the box.

As long as they get the best 11 out there and can finally cover a TE, I'll be happy.

(03-26-2020, 03:12 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Possibly, and certainly Williams would be decent at covering RBs or TEs, but I tend to think that playing a 3rd safety down in the box is more for downs where you are fairly certain it's going to be a pass play. In the running game, how good is Williams at shedding blocks?

I really don't know much of anything about Bynes. Is he really a legit starting LBer? Or is he just better than Vigil so we'll take him?

I also look at the fact that we seem to have a couple of LBers miss multiple games lately. I wouldn't mind seeing 3 LBers drafted.

 

Have to agree with you on the injury front. This team always seems to end up getting hammered at one position group or another and LB is still thin, but this does make it a more open draft as they don't have to go reaching for any one position now.