(04-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Something the analytics people push hard is that a TFL is as good as a sack. I know this wasn't really in context of your post but figured like a good place to plug this in. Fans and even some football people get too infatuated with sacks however if I told you on 2nd down it was 2nd and 13 without telling you what happened you'd say it was a big, and positive play, the fact it happened because you stuffed the run or hit the QB really does not matter.

Again, not your point but worth noting here.

You're right, as they result in the same thing. Loss of yardage, clock keeps going.

(04-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Something the analytics people push hard is that a TFL is as good as a sack. I know this wasn't really in context of your post but figured like a good place to plug this in. Fans and even some football people get too infatuated with sacks however if I told you on 2nd down it was 2nd and 13 without telling you what happened you'd say it was a big, and positive play, the fact it happened because you stuffed the run or hit the QB really does not matter.

Again, not your point but worth noting here.

This. Sacks are overrated man, big time.

(04-13-2020, 01:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This. Sacks are overrated man, big time.

I wouldn’t say sacks are overrated as much as that TFL are underrated.

(04-13-2020, 09:01 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I wouldn’t say sacks are overrated as much as that TFL are underrated.

I agree. Tackles for loss are just as good though depending on how big of a loss it is.

You don't win Defensive MVP for tackles for loss. You win it most of the time for sacks.

(04-10-2020, 10:28 PM)J24 Wrote: He had a disappointing season last year( more so a disappointing second half) but the prior 4 seasons dude was a beast he had 39 Sacks those 4 seasons with 53 TFLs.
He spoiled us over his career.

He hasn't been a down to down force the last few years. You can have 16 sacks per season by making one good play per game. It's what you do in between that matters. He can still flash for a play or two every couple games, but he's been pretty much not noticeable throughout most games in recent years.

(04-13-2020, 09:49 PM)Mobster Wrote: He hasn't been a down to down force the last few years. You can have 16 sacks per season by making one good play per game. It's what you do in between that matters. He can still flash for a play or two every couple games, but he's been pretty much not noticeable throughout most games in recent years.

I wouldn’t say he’s been unnoticeable in most games, it just seems like the stretches of him going MIA are much longer these past couple years. When he’s on, he’s still a force, but the consistency just hasn’t been there. Hopefully a reduced snap count will help going forward.

(04-13-2020, 01:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This. Sacks are overrated man, big time.

This.  The absolute best pass rusher in the league will have multiple games with zero sacks.  Sacks happen so rarely that it is not fair to judge a players impact by just that one stat.


With NextGen stats they use GPS to determin exactly when a defender gets closer to the QB than the blocker, i.e. "beat the block".  They discovered that the first player to beat his blocker often does not get the sack but the pressure created by that first rusher leads directly to a sack by another player.  They were talking about creating a new stat like "sack assist" or "sacks created".  This way you would see a lot more interior guys getting credit for creating sacks with their pressure.

(04-13-2020, 01:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This. Sacks are overrated man, big time.

This.  The absolute best pass rusher in the league will have multiple games with zero sacks.  Sacks happen so rarely that it is not fair to judge a players impact by just that one stat.


With NextGen stats they use GPS to determin exactly when a defender gets closer to the QB than the blocker, i.e. "beat the block".  They discovered that the first player to beat his blocker often does not get the sack but the pressure created by that first rusher leads directly to a sack by another player.  They were talking about creating a new stat like "sack assist" or "sacks created".  This way you would see a lot more interior guys getting credit for creating sacks with their pressure.

Would be nice if they created a new stat for this. Sure would tell you more about Defenders and their impact on
the game. Often like you said Fred the first guy there runs the QB out to another Defender and the first guy gets
no credit and the other Defender gets all the credit even when he is not creating pressure.

(04-14-2020, 01:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Would be nice if they created a new stat for this. Sure would tell you more about Defenders and their impact on
the game. Often like you said Fred the first guy there runs the QB out to another Defender and the first guy gets
no credit and the other Defender gets all the credit even when he is not creating pressure.

Carlos for example has several "assists' coming his way if they do.

(04-14-2020, 01:32 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Carlos for example has several "assists' coming his way if they do.

For sure, Big Los is one of the most disruptive Ends in the game, it isn't just the sacks he gets. It is the pressures, the sacks
and TFL he causes, the tipped balls. All of this, I like the thought of creating this new stat Fred is talking about here. Sack 
assist or sacks created.

The Bengals are 21 43 and 1 over the last 4 years
I think.their record in the North over that time span
Is 6 18 or 5 19
I've seen Geno put up some very productive Game
Outside the North . But when he plays against the
North I see a disapearing act.
He needs to become more a force within the North
Our record vs the North in the last 4 yrs is what it is cause Frankly
Our "star" players fail to play up to.their talents.
We need Hubbard Dunlap and Atkins to really dominate

(04-10-2020, 01:23 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I’m hoping to see Andrew Brown take another step towards starting.

I’d caution expecting too much out of Geno. He is on the wrong side of 30 and he’ll never be as good as he once was.

I think a good D-line rotation would go a long way to helping Geno out.

(04-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Something the analytics people push hard is that a TFL is as good as a sack. I know this wasn't really in context of your post but figured like a good place to plug this in. Fans and even some football people get too infatuated with sacks however if I told you on 2nd down it was 2nd and 13 without telling you what happened you'd say it was a big, and positive play, the fact it happened because you stuffed the run or hit the QB really does not matter.

Again, not your point but worth noting here.

Analytically speaking a Sack is merely a particular kind of TFL. Hence they are valued the same.

Just for fun, would a tackle behind the line on Lamar Jackson when the play is clearly a designed QB run go down as a sack since hes a qb? As mentioned earlier a sack and tfl are essentially the same thing. Just based on who you're tackling. Though most sacks tend to result in a greater net loss of yards than your average tfl.

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(04-13-2020, 11:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Something the analytics people push hard is that a TFL is as good as a sack. I know this wasn't really in context of your post but figured like a good place to plug this in. Fans and even some football people get too infatuated with sacks however if I told you on 2nd down it was 2nd and 13 without telling you what happened you'd say it was a big, and positive play, the fact it happened because you stuffed the run or hit the QB really does not matter.

Again, not your point but worth noting here.

Agreed.
TFLs are as good as sacks. Both result in no yards gained and loss of down.

Mason,
If the QB does not go past the LOS its a sack. There have been sacks for zero yards before. And it is possible to get a sack from a WR/RB/TE if it is clear that they are attempting a forward pass.

(04-15-2020, 12:30 AM)SladeX Wrote: Analytically speaking  a Sack is merely a particular  kind of TFL. Hence they are valued the same.

Should be anyways. Never seen a Defender win DPOY for Tackles for loss.

I always thought sacking a QB did more psychological
Damage to a offense and especially the QB .
Look if a QB is continously getting pressured and sacked
His internal clock will really be out of sorts
Hit a QB enough times, he will be releasing the football milliseconds
Before he has to.
Then that results into higher incomplete % and his mechanics
Will suffer

(04-15-2020, 11:00 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I always thought sacking a QB did more psychological
Damage to a offense and especially the QB .
Look if a QB is continously getting pressured and sacked
His internal clock will really be out of sorts
Hit a QB enough times, he will be releasing the football milliseconds
Before he has to.
Then that results into higher incomplete % and his mechanics
Will suffer

All true but getting tackles for loss gives the Defense more opportunities to hit and sack the QB...