(05-23-2020, 06:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: For Justin Smith, it's because he became a 3-4 DE rather than a 4-3 DE. The matchups and expectations are different. That's why there are regularly multiple 4-3 DEs who get double digit sacks and as for 3-4 DEs there's only the freakish JJ Watt.

This. :andy:

(05-23-2020, 07:28 PM)Dean_Gilberry95 Wrote:   I’m not saying Joe Thomas is no hall of gamer or not good.  Just if Whitworth was on one of the chosen franchises maybe Joe Thomas isn’t “the man” all those years.

Cleveland is a "chosen franchise"?

Chosen for what?  Crippling despair, and to be a national punching bag?  

(05-23-2020, 07:28 PM)Dean_Gilberry95 Wrote: Fair enough didn’t know he was ever All Pro here.  That being said, so it took 10 seasons for Whitworth to start playing at a All Pro level?  Hell No.  Just like Big Willie, no love until late in their careers.  The sports writers, networks, fans, etc get on their knees for certain players over others.  Just like one guy saying the chargers powder blue is so awesome, then they all jump on board saying “best uniform in football.”  Gag.  

They all pile on the Joe Thomas bandwagon “future HOF” like you said, just the same.   While Whitworth, (just as good) gets nothing for 10 years.  I’m not saying Joe Thomas is no hall of gamer or not good.  Just if Whitworth was on one of the chosen franchises maybe Joe Thomas isn’t “the man” all those years.

Anyway, Justin Smith and Whitworth were awesome Bengals!  WhoDey

OR... just hear me out here, Whit was a LG for the first 3 years of his career, was in Bob Bratkowski's offense for the first 5 years of his career, and Joe Thomas was just really really good at football the second he entered the league.

Andrew Whitworth has been 1st Team All-Pro more than Drew Brees and Russell Wilson combined have. Whitworth has only been 1st Team All-Pro 1 time less than Dan Marino. It's a hard thing to be.

If your argument is based around Whitworth being snubbed because he wasn't on a "chosen franchise" and the person you're complaining about is on the BROWNS, then it's a flawed argument. Lol

(05-22-2020, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote:

You said you were disappointed the Bengals didn't fire you...

Only read part of the thread, but there seems to a mix of those who want to give Taylor a mulligan for last season and those saw 2019 as a flop.

To only win 2 games with a roster that produced 6 wins the season before was a step back, no matter how you look at it. In 2018 the team lost both AJ and Dalton for much of the year, so that 6 wins likely would have been more if all were healthy, so the 2019 injuries don't really explain away how bad of a season last year was. The major change last season was the coaching staff.

But going forward, with the new talent added and the money spent in free agency, I believe we all see this team as more talented than the 2018 team. And if that turns out to be the case then this team should beat out the 2018 team over this season, even with injuries along the way.

If the team cannot pull that off then it is Taylor who didn't get it done. He's been given improved talent.

On the other side of the coin, if the team goes out and say takes the division, then that would be a bonus brought to us by Taylor. Of course, I don't see this team taking the division, but you never know - it is possible.

If they manage to get a wildcard berth and lose, then really what has changed over Marvin? Little to nothing in terms of results. And it is results that count and so far Taylor is lacking severely in that department. At this moment he is a 2-14 coach (12.5% winning percentage).

This team needs playoff wins and competing toward a championship.

(05-23-2020, 08:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Cleveland is a "chosen franchise"?

Chosen for what?  Crippling despair, and to be a national punching bag?  

The part two video is even better, YES! there IS a part 2.

Taylor is definitely in the hot seat for me. I feel like he was trying to tank last year, so if I don't see a drastic improvement in the playcalling and overall execution of the team then I wont have much hope in him at all. I was worried when we picked him up because of his lack of experience. We will see. I hope that Taylor and Burrow win more titles than Belichick and Brady.

(05-23-2020, 01:28 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I do not think there is a specific number of wins needed, we just need to show improvement.

Taylor and his staff made some good decisions, some bad ones, and had some things out of their control.

I. Beyond his Control

1. Injuries. Not just AJ and Jonah. But Cordy Glenn as well. Ross and Phillips also got injured after good starts.
2. Retirements. Boling + Jonah & Glenn's injuries wreaked havoc on the O-line.
3. Marvin's roster. Had a lot of holes. Particularly LB. 4-3 system guys when he wants to play more 3-4.
4. Late hire. Did not have a lot of time to prepare for draft, or go after FAs. And it showed.

II. Poor Decisions/Bad signs.

1. Reaching for Sample in R2.
2. Too few OTs on roster forced a career G to LT (Jerry). Bad roster construction.
3. Some curious play calling, especially in the Red Zone.
4. Terrible defensive execution. Worst run defense. Terrible on 3rd down. Bad LBs. Regression from secondary starters. Compare 2018 v 2019 PFF grades: Bates (79.9 to 59.7), WJ3 (73.4 v 53.6), S. Williams (71.6 to 54.4). Dre was consistent at a lower level (60.0 to 61.7), but he and Dennard, who was our best secondary performer (68.6 to 72.2) are both gone.  Lou has to show he can do a better job with the DBs. I know you want to run a different system and were stuck with Marvin's guys, but you have to coach the guys you have.


A. Good Decisions/Signs

1. The Finley tank job. Netted us Burrow.
2. Recognition of need for change and the Courage to do it. Changing the blocking scheme on the O-line late led to be inprovements (as did Glenn getting healthy). Moreover, he changed from the system he initially wanted to run to one that better fit his personnel. That is a good sign. Good coaches cannot be too inflexible/in love with their preferred systems. Coach, don't wage some ideological football crusade.
3. Recognition/Courage: Part 2: Personnel changes. Not afraid to not only replace a high priced starter who just got paid with a rookie (Preston Brown for Pratt), but cutting that vet altogether. Lets the players know no one is safe and the FO is behind the coach. Also, did not waste much time letting Jerry, Miller, and Glenn go after the season, despite decent play (especially Glenn).
4. Recognition/Courage: Part 3:  Culture.  All his major defensive FAs came from PO teams (Reader, Bynes, Waynes, Bell, Alexander, and Sims). 6 of the 7 draft picks (and several of the UDFAs) were team captains. Several were coaches sons. All were productive. Versatile. Smart guys. Winners. Captains. High football IQ. He has a vision for the team and the culture, but did not reach for try hard guys who cannot play to get there.
5. Learned from mistakes. No Sample redux this year.
6. Planning with Adaptability. Knew Burrow was the pick in R1, so went heavy on D in FA. Wanted to improve the run D, got Reader & upgraded secondary tackling with Bell, Alexander & Waynes. Realized LB was a disaster but refrained from overpaying a FA LB $10 mil because the liked the LB depth in the draft. But that did not stop him from signing a vet MIKE for cheap in FA (Bynes), nor from taking Higgins in R2 instead of reaching for a LB after Brooks, Queen, & Murray were gone.

---------------

Look, I have no idea if Taylor will be a good coach or not. But I think there are some good signs. I still have worries. I still think we are too thin at OT. I worry that our secondary will struggle on 3rd down again. Not a fan of Turner. O-line is shaky and inexperienced. Taylor's play calling needs to improve. But there are solid building blocks in place. He has learned from mistakes (Sample), adapted, made tough decisions and cut ties quickly when needed (Brown), but also shown some grace (Dre, Andy). He showed he has a vision but it also willing to adapt it when necessary.

Our division is tough. Anything above 6 wins is fantastic. Below 5 is worrisome. 2 or 3 = DANGER, WILL ROBINSON.

I agree with pretty much all of this. The part about personnel changes to me is an especially positive sign that Taylor has a plan and a vision of what type of players he needs to build it. Taylor season one had me wondering if the Dave Shula comparisons were accurate but I did give him a bit of a pass due to the circumstances that he walked into provided that he makes the necessary adjustments in season two. I am happy with what I have seen so far as we head into season two and I am even optimistic that Zac will prove to be a good hire for the organization. To the OP, I do not feel that Zac is under much pressure at all this season to produce x number of wins and my only expectation of him is to put a better prepared more competitive product on the field that plays with more urgency than we have seen for the last several years. If he does that, the wins will follow.

(05-23-2020, 12:17 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If our defense is still trash, Lou's head will roll before Zac's does.

I have expectations Lou is going to roll out a tough Defense this year.

(05-23-2020, 08:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Cleveland is a "chosen franchise"?

Chosen for what?  Crippling despair, and to be a national punching bag?  

Cleveland can be a perennial loser and still get treated better than they Bengals because they are a legacy team and the Bengals are an expansion team.

(05-26-2020, 08:55 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Cleveland can be a perennial loser and still get treated better than they Bengals because they are a legacy team and the Bengals are an expansion team.

The Redskins and the Lions are "legacy" teams, do they get treated better than teams like the Patriots and Broncos?

(05-24-2020, 02:36 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Taylor is definitely in the hot seat for me. I feel like he was trying to tank last year, so if I don't see a drastic improvement in the playcalling and overall execution of the team then I wont have much hope in him at all. I was worried when we picked him up because of his lack of experience. We will see. I hope that Taylor and Burrow win more titles than Belichick and Brady.

To each his own, but I have a hard time picturing a HC who intentionally loses NFL games ever hoisting the Lombardi.  If ZT legitimately tried to lose games in 2019 then his job is done and we should fire him before Burrow finds out he's playing for someone who willingly loses. He probably won't like that or he might be worried that the second we drop below .500 it'll be time to "see what we have in Finley" again.

I'm glad Burrow is here, but the notion that we are saddling our great new hope of a QB with a HC who let the Browns, Ravens, and Steelers walk over us is just something I can't stomach.