(09-09-2020, 05:42 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I would have to disagree on #4. Hall was a better corner than anyone on this roster currently and Clements played better here than some might remember. Nelson was also a better safety than anyone on the roster currently. That defense finished 7th in yards and 9th in points against and it wasn't all due to Zimmer. 

This years defense does have some talent but also a very, very serious question mark at DC. I am not a believer in Anarumo yet, but I hope he makes me one. 

Hall vs Jackson is a push, Alexander is better than Clements,  I would take Phillips over Jennings, Bates vs Nelson is a draw , and Bell over Crocker. It's not a huge gap but I would take this secondary over that one.

Zimmer is no doubt the goat but last year's unit significantly improved at the end of last season compared to the first part.  Lou proved himself towards the end of last  season.

(09-09-2020, 05:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I've been on the same wavelength as soon as it was clear we were replacing Dalton with an instant-star QB.  I have faith in Burrow, but if things look unreasonably sluggish I hope we pull the plug on the guy and use the magic of Burrow to lure a better HC here.

I realize this is an unprecedented situation where a rookie QB hasn't even had a pre-season snap and he's starting, but if our offense looks relatively bad then ZT's is unimpressive resume isn't going to help his case.


So yes, in both 2011 and 2020 we are coming off disappointing years where we could have canned the HC but instead we are moving on with a new QB.

But does 2011 happen if Bob Bratkowski is still calling the shots offensively? 

I'd feel 78.3% better about this offense if Taylor had given up play calling responsibilities this year. I don't think he's a bad dude, and he seems like a decent motivator of people. I just have absolutely zero respect/belief in his OC/playcalling abilities.

(09-09-2020, 05:58 PM)J24 Wrote: Hall vs Jackson is a push, Alexander is better than Clements,  I would take Phillips over Jennings, Bates vs Nelson is a draw , and Bell over Crocker. It's not a huge gap but I would take this secondary over that one.

Zimmer is no doubt the goat but last year's unit significantly improved at the end of last season compared to the first part.  Lou proved himself towards the end of last  season.

Agree to disagree, but I hope you're right. This team has me more excited than 2011 and if the defense shows up, that would be incredible. 

(09-09-2020, 05:49 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: No way you can ZT after one season.. after this year.. possible.. but im not going to start blaming ZT if Burrow does not perform well.. im not giving Burrow a free pass.. as the #1 pick that set records in college he should be held to a high standard also as a rookie

I don't see why canning a 2-14 HC is such a crazy idea, honestly.  I don't mind that ZT is still here (yet) but come on the guy came in with a shaky resume and started things off by setting losing records for a franchise that has a lot of competition for losing records.

If Burrow struggles people are going to see a rookie with a stellar resume in an insanely bizarre season and then they're going to look at his offensive-minded HC who went 2-14 without him and was a QB coach before he got here.  No one is going to side with ZT on that one, but we'll have to see how it goes.

Maybe everything goes swell and 2019 was just a big ol' stupid anomaly.

(09-09-2020, 05:58 PM)J24 Wrote: Hall vs Jackson is a push, Alexander is better than Clements,  I would take Phillips over Jennings, Bates vs Nelson is a draw , and Bell over Crocker. It's not a huge gap but I would take this secondary over that one.

Zimmer is no doubt the goat but last year's unit significantly improved at the end of last season compared to the first part.  Lou proved himself towards the end of last  season.

Jackson and Bates were exceedingly meh last year. Plus both forgot how to tackle.

Give me Hall and Nelson over Jackson and Bates in a heartbeat. Hall was coming off a 4 INT season, which is 2 more INTs than Jackson has had in 4 years in the NFL. He was also a very sure tackler. Nelson is a 2x Pro Bowler who in 2011 had 4 INT, 2 FF, 2.0 sacks, and could absolutely lay down the hammer with hits (and was Ben Roethlisberger's kryptonite).

There's 0 chance that Hall v Jackson and Nelson v Bates are both even comparisons.

Also don't know why you're saying it's Phillips vs Jennings when it'd actually be Phillips vs Adam Jones. Jones ended up a Pro Bowl CB later, so I don't know if that'd be a favorable comparison either.

I would also argue Bell = Crocker. It wasn't until 2012 that Crocker really started going downhill.

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But honestly at the end of the day I wouldn't care which secondary I got so long as it was Zimmer as DC rather than Anarumo.

(09-09-2020, 03:42 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Seems I have been reading a lot of low expectations and was wondering how we feel about duplicating 2011 since it sure seems like this team is very reminiscent to 2011 rebuild... which went 9-7 in a very tough division after a terrible 2010 season, led by rookie sensation Green and a fresh of air and quality QB in Dalton as a rookie...  On paper this team is better coming in overall than 2011 on both sides of the ball.  The division at the top was better in 2011 with both Baltimore and Steelers at their peak.. Cleveland was down in 2011 and still unproven in 2020.

I feel if Burrow plays to the level of a fantasy rookie QB , Green stays healthy and defense stays healthy I feel we do have a shot in making a run to the playoffs like the 2011 team...  If we stay healthy the only two places I feel that will hold us back if Burrow does not produce or our unproven coaching staff does not come through.


Thoughts?

This team could be just as good with all the moves and I believe Burrow will be a better rookie QB than Dalton was.

Need to not have a bunch of injuries and the LB core and the O-line need to really improve for us to make the Playoffs this season.

Not out of the question, the OL with Jonah on it will be much better and I love the LB's we brought in the last couple years.

The coaching is my biggest problem in saying we can win 9 games but even then with all the moves, it makes me think last year
was more of an evaluation of Marvin's team then a year that we can really judge the coaches and namely Taylor on. We will see,
but I am excited, that is for damn sure.

(09-09-2020, 05:58 PM)J24 Wrote: Hall vs Jackson is a push, Alexander is better than Clements,  I would take Phillips over Jennings, Bates vs Nelson is a draw , and Bell over Crocker. It's not a huge gap but I would take this secondary over that one.

Zimmer is no doubt the goat but last year's unit significantly improved at the end of last season compared to the first part.  Lou proved himself towards the end of last  season.

Eh... I'll give ya Vonn Bell. I can't get with the rest of that. I don't think Jackson is close to Leon Hall... On any level. The same goes for Bates and Reggie Nelson.

I know it's not 2011, but I know it's on YouTube. Watch the 2013 Packers game. Defense only... Compare THAT to what we saw at the end of last year. The aggression on defense is night and day. That's coaching

(09-09-2020, 06:40 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Jackson and Bates were exceedingly meh last year. Plus both forgot how to tackle.

Give me Hall and Nelson over Jackson and Bates in a heartbeat. Hall was coming off a 4 INT season, which is 2 more INTs than Jackson has had in 4 years in the NFL. He was also a very sure tackler. Nelson is a 2x Pro Bowler who in 2011 had 4 INT, 2 FF, 2.0 sacks, and could absolutely lay down the hammer with hits (and was Ben Roethlisberger's kryptonite).

There's 0 chance that Hall v Jackson and Nelson v Bates are both even comparisons.

Also don't know why you're saying it's Phillips vs Jennings when it'd actually be Phillips vs Adam Jones. Jones ended up a Pro Bowl CB later, so I don't know if that'd be a favorable comparison either.

I would also argue Bell = Crocker. It wasn't until 2012 that Crocker really started going downhill.

- - - - - - - -

But honestly at the end of the day I wouldn't care which secondary I got so long as it was Zimmer as DC rather than Anarumo.

In fairness... Pacman missed a lot of that season. The first 2 months maybe.

(09-09-2020, 06:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't see why canning a 2-14 HC is such a crazy idea, honestly.  I don't mind that ZT is still here (yet) but come on the guy came in with a shaky resume and started things off by setting losing records for a franchise that has a lot of competition for losing records.

If Burrow struggles people are going to see a rookie with a stellar resume in an insanely bizarre season and then they're going to look at his offensive-minded HC who went 2-14 without him and was a QB coach before he got here.  No one is going to side with ZT on that one, but we'll have to see how it goes.

Maybe everything goes swell and 2019 was just a big ol' stupid anomaly.

I'm not defending ZT at all. But he sorta run into a buzz saw last year in many ways. Let's just say I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.

(09-09-2020, 10:12 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm not defending ZT at all. But he sorta run into a buzz saw last year in many ways. Let's just say I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.

I hear ya, I'd just be more willing to extend him a line of credit if he had more success on his resume. 

(09-09-2020, 05:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Based on what?
- - - - - -

WRs about about a wash.
AJ Green >> AJ Green
Jerome Simpson << Tyler Boyd
Andre Caldwell ~ John Ross

RBs has an edge to 2020.
Joe Mixon is coming off 2,300 rushing yards/13 TDs the last two years > Cedric Benson was coming off 2,360 rushing yards/13 TDs the previous two years, but Benson with worse YPC.

TEs is all 2011.
Jermaine Gresham >> CJ Uzomah

OL is MASSIVELY 2011.
Andrew Whitworth >>> Jonah Williams
Nate Livings ~ Michael Johnson
Kyle Cook ~ Trey Hopkins
Bobbie Williams > Xavier Su'a-Filo
Andre Smith >> Bobby Hart

I was referencing skilled players more Boyd is way better than Simpson, the two years he has had on two bad teams was very impressive.. On WR core is considered much deeper on paper.... Mixon is younger and is considered better than Benson as whole at this time.. AJ was rookie, now a veteran.. he is a better player if healthy now but big IF I will agree.. 
As for the line, I agree 2011 is better but when you look at the players coming into 2011 you would down grade some of them for example Smith had barely played so you could not predict how he would perform... Williams was 34/35 past his prime , he was out of football i believe after 2011.. Hopkins and Cook a wash though I think Hopkins will be better, Cook was done by 2013... Nat Livings so so player.. had one more year in the league...  The clear edge was Whit.. hoping Williams performs like we think with his 1st round grade..

In the end I do see the skilled players a clear edge to 2020 and 2011 edge on the line (remember the 2010 line was not that good and outside of a hurt Smith it was pretty much the same line in 2011)

(09-09-2020, 06:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't see why canning a 2-14 HC is such a crazy idea, honestly.  I don't mind that ZT is still here (yet) but come on the guy came in with a shaky resume and started things off by setting losing records for a franchise that has a lot of competition for losing records.

If Burrow struggles people are going to see a rookie with a stellar resume in an insanely bizarre season and then they're going to look at his offensive-minded HC who went 2-14 without him and was a QB coach before he got here.  No one is going to side with ZT on that one, but we'll have to see how it goes.

Maybe everything goes swell and 2019 was just a big ol' stupid anomaly.

In game situations.. it will be pretty obvious if Burrow does not excel at the level he is expected too as a Rookie... All teams have the same adversity.. even 2011 offseason was not normal.. 

ZT was not dealt a great hand at all last year.. and the one thing he seemed to do and has continued to do is keep the team together as a team.. He needs to improve this year for sure.. and if not I can understand the temptation to show him the door.. as for Burrow perform as expected is good enough for me... 

Not only were the coaches more experienced in 2011 but so were the players. 2011's roster had alot more veterans and players that were on the team the and in the system thr year before. Right now the Bengals are a young squad and had replaced 40% of their roster from 2019.

The 2020 Bengals have alot of talent though and could surprise alot of people if they put it all together quickly.

(09-10-2020, 02:28 PM)Synric Wrote: Not only were the coaches more experienced in 2011 but so were the players. 2011's roster had alot more veterans and players that were on the team the and in the system thr year before. Right now the Bengals are a young squad and had replaced 40% of their roster from 2019.

The 2020 Bengals have alot of talent though and could surprise alot of people if they put it all together quickly.

But you are takking about a team that was 4-12 and kept same players.. we invested in FA with some solid additions,  this team in many areas looks better than 2011 coming in..

It’s all up to Lou Anarumo and the defense. Late last season I saw improvement from the defense but as much as I like Lou he’s not Mike Zimmer. Mike scared those guys into playing well; I’m convinced of this! Never forget in 2012 when Vontaze Burfict called his mother from training camp to tell her how afraid of Coach Zimmer he was. If you can scare Vontaze then you’ve got something.

I’ll let you know after the first few defensive series whether Cincinnati can approach 2011 standards. If I see adequate run stuffing, pass coverage, and most of all tightly covered tight ends I’ll feel more confident.

(09-10-2020, 08:34 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: It’s all up to Lou Anarumo and the defense.  Late last season I saw improvement from the defense but as much as I like Lou he’s not Mike Zimmer.  Mike scared those guys into playing well; I’m convinced of this!  Never forget in 2012 when Vontaze Burfict called his mother from training camp to tell her how afraid of Coach Zimmer he was.  If you can scare Vontaze then you’ve got something.

I’ll let you know after the first few defensive series whether Cincinnati can approach 2011 standards.  If I see adequate run stuffing, pass coverage, and most of all tightly covered tight ends I’ll feel more confident.

Yeah, Lou sure ain't no Zim. But I have to give him a little time before judging him the same as Zac.

He had Marv and Austin's team for heck sake. This is his Defense and now we can judge him fairly just the same as Zac.

My take.

2011 had a better team the year before, but 2020 added more talent in the offseason.  So it is hard to say.

Still think the biggest difference by far is the O-line.  But I also have to admit that I did not have much faith in Andre Smith going into the 2011 season.  Hopefully someone (or 2 or 3) on our O-line will take his game up a level like Dre did in '11.  I also have to admit that I was upset when we did not add talent to our O-line before the '11 season.  The team pretty much admitted that they needed help at OG when they signed Duece Latui,  but when that deal fell through they did not go get anyone else.

For the sake of full disclosure I also felt we had not done enough to upgrade the defense, and that we neede to sign a veteran QB to give Dalton a year to develop.  I actually boycotted by not attending a game at PBS in 2011.  I only go to one game a year so I don't think my boycott had much effect on the front office, but that 2010 season had really left a bad taste in my mouth.  Mainly because of the high expectations we had at the start of that season.  2-14 was horrible last year, but I did not start the season thinking we were a serious playoff contender. 4-12 in 2010 was a much worse punch in the gut.