There's nothing wrong with the defense, that having all of their players healthy and available won't fix.

(09-23-2020, 07:39 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Is there anything to actually back up that Lawson is “one of the best pass rushers in the league?”

Because outside of his rookie season, I just haven’t seen it. He’s becoming one of our most overrated players honestly. He gets a lot of QB hits, but he doesn’t get nearly enough sacks to be one of the best.

I hate to keep picking on whoever it was that made the prediction, but 20 sacks for Carl Lawson was pretty ridiculous.

Lawson issue is he’s not a 3 down player he’s a pass rush specialist and we can’t stop the run. I feel like he’s on the field less because we’re in less obvious passing situations. I never viewed Lawson as a DE 1 but just a good complimentary pass rusher who could hover around 10 sacks a year. If we need a big sack on 3rd down we don’t really have a true closer.

(09-23-2020, 08:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: There's nothing wrong with the defense, that having all of their players healthy and available won't fix.

I don’t really buy that. The only starters we’re missing are Geno and Waynes.

(09-23-2020, 08:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t really buy that. The only starters we’re missing are Geno and Waynes.

Geno, his first backup, Waynes, and Shawn Williams.  I know, many thought Shawn Williams was going to be expendable, but the guy can hit and tackle well.

(09-23-2020, 08:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Geno, his first backup, Waynes, and Shawn Williams.  I know, many thought Shawn Williams was going to be expendable, but the guy can hit and tackle well.

Geno and Williams both played last year, and the defense was terrible. It was the new guys that were supposed to help the most. And while Reader hasn’t be bad he hasn’t exactly lived up to expectations either. We’re getting gashed on the ground just as badly as ever.

Vonn Bell has been disappointing so far. Maybe Waynes would have made a difference, but I doubt it. This team has no pass rush. Nothing is going to improve until that happens. The LBers were a huge problem against Cleveland as well.

(09-23-2020, 06:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the first 5 games of 2018 Geno had 6 sacks, 8 TFL, and 12 QB hits.  Dunlap had 4 sacks, 8 QB hits, 5 tipped passes and 2 forced fumbles.

(09-23-2020, 06:42 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) A Geno was literally the best Defensive player in the NFl in the beginning of the 2018 season. He also was the only guy to show up to start the season last year.
2.) Geno is a Hall of Famer why are you picking on that guy? He is only that has shown up year after year. Yet somehow he gets so much shit on this board it's odd.

Exactly the point... 2018 was two years ago! The OP was that we don't have any game changing defenders NOW, and we need one. And yet many fans, and it looks like our own management, seem to think we do. I've even heard reference to the Bengals having one of the best defensive lines in the league, and that's far from true.

I don't think anybody is "picking on" Geno. He's one of my favorite players in the history of the Bengals ... see my handle for evidence. But as far as a realistic assessment of the problems of our CURRENT defense, we have serious personnel problems beyond just linebackers. Going back to 2018, an entire head coach ago, for counterevidence just proves the point.

(09-23-2020, 08:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Geno and Williams both played last year, and the defense was terrible. It was the new guys that were supposed to help the most. And while Reader hasn’t be bad he hasn’t exactly lived up to expectations either. We’re getting gashed on the ground just as badly as ever.

Vonn Bell has been disappointing so far. Maybe Waynes would have made a difference, but I doubt it. This team has no pass rush. Nothing is going to improve until that happens. The LBers were a huge problem against Cleveland as well.

And the new guys will help a lot, once they get some continuity as a group.  It takes reps together, to build a unit.  Missing OTAs and preseason games hurt the defense tremendously.  Everyone knows that you can't just throw a collection of players together and expect them to perform like a seasoned unit.  It will take a little time together and for them to get healthy, and then you will see them perform like the professionals they are.

(09-23-2020, 05:58 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: Absolutely. Somehow we've been living in this myth that Geno and Carlos are still game changing defenders, and while that was true of Carlos the latter part of last year, generally speaking it hasn't been true for a few years. He hasn't been good so far this year and Geno hasn't even played.

I like guys like Bates and Hubbard, but they're not the calibre of player you're talking about.

If Penei Sewell is off the board when we pick in round 1, we might just go defensive playmaker. I have some thoughts on that but will save them for much later in the year.

It's blasphemy to say Geno is not a game changer in this forum, it would just be you and I holding this opinion. For the longest time if the Bengals are only as good as their backups, yeah we're the worst in the NFL. Often the superbowl winners are dealing with a lot of injuries; the Bengals franchise deals with fragility. One or two players out and we will get the worst record.

(09-23-2020, 09:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And the new guys will help a lot, once they get some continuity as a group.  It takes reps together, to build a unit.  Missing OTAs and preseason games hurt the defense tremendously.  Everyone knows that you can't just throw a collection of players together and expect them to perform like a seasoned unit.  It will take a little time together and for them to get healthy, and then you will see them perform like the professionals they are.

You’re far more hopeful than I am wrt the defense. We haven’t even played a top QB yet, and we have Lamar (x2), Dak, Watson, and Ben (x2) on the schedule. And we certainly haven’t shown the ability to stop the run.

I feel like it will be another long season, with a few wins squeaked out mostly by the offense. But we’ll see.

We already have 1 even though he had a bad game Thursday. Jessie Bates

(09-23-2020, 10:14 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re far more hopeful than I am wrt the defense. We haven’t even played a top QB yet, and we have Lamar (x2), Dak, Watson, and Ben (x2) on the schedule. And we certainly haven’t shown the ability to stop the run.

I feel like it will be another long season, with a few wins squeaked out mostly by the offense. But we’ll see.

Even if the offseason had gone as normal, it would have taken this newly comprised group of defenders a few games to get up to par playing together.  With the situation being what it is, I still feel like they will get it together in the next few weeks.  Success isn't always instant, it takes time for the plan to play out.

(09-23-2020, 08:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Geno and Williams both played last year, and the defense was terrible. It was the new guys that were supposed to help the most. And while Reader hasn’t be bad he hasn’t exactly lived up to expectations either. We’re getting gashed on the ground just as badly as ever.

Vonn Bell has been disappointing so far. Maybe Waynes would have made a difference, but I doubt it. This team has no pass rush. Nothing is going to improve until that happens. The LBers were a huge problem against Cleveland as well.

I think it may have hurt Reader loosing the weight. The guy went from being a bull in a china shop to getting pushed around. Loosing some weight was good for stamina but the guy lost a lot of weight and being an anchor was his game.

I dont know if this is affecting the defense or not but Anarumo.has exactly 18 games under.his belt as a DC.
On.gameday he's still trying to figure out his role as a DC. He almost a rookie in terms of being a DC.
It still kills me that ZT did not go with a experienced DC.

I.don't see anyone on defense playing with anykind of contagious passion or fire 2 games in.
I see alot of missed tackles. I see alot of guys taking themselves out of the play.
I see alot of guys getting their proverbial behinds handed to them by backup olinemen.
In 2 games I've seen QBs do what they want. Ive seen RBs look barely breaking a sweat running through our 2nd and 3rd
Levels

Reader if anything has played the best on defense. The issue isn't RBs prancing right up the gut on us, it is outside runs because our ends don't seal them correctly and then tackling by our green as grass LBs and by WJIII among others. In essence it is the exact same issues that plagued the D last season, and I think part of it is these stupid 2 LB alignments Lou seems to like so much.

Really, right now with the missing players we should be base 3-4 and really have 4 LB out there. Have Hubbard and Dunlap for now as DEs and Reader as NT. Wilson and Bynes inside LBs, Pratt and ADG OLBs.

Well, there's no doubt the defense crapped the bed against Cleveland, so let's see what bringing in playmakers from other teams and drafting Captains brings to game 3. My guess is we'll see a much improved performance.

(09-24-2020, 03:12 AM)Joelist Wrote: Really, right now with the missing players we should be base 3-4 and really have 4 LB out there. Have Hubbard and Dunlap for now as DEs and Reader as NT. Wilson and Bynes inside LBs, Pratt and ADG OLBs.

Sorry man but that would be a horrific alignment. We'd get absolutely drubbed. 

(09-23-2020, 11:35 PM)WhodeyRay Wrote: I think it may have hurt Reader loosing the weight. The guy went from being a bull in a china shop to getting pushed around. Loosing some weight was good for stamina but the guy lost a lot of weight and being an anchor was his game.

Since he's now going to have to play close to 100% of snaps, it's a good thing he trimmed down.

Vigil sucked, yet he shined vs the Bengals.

(09-23-2020, 06:12 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) We have had a Hall of Famer game changer on defense for the past decade and his name is Geno Atkins on defense. Vontaze was overrated as a player and more importantly as a leader.

2.) I would say we have 5 guys that can take over games anytime they want. 2 are much older now but still can get it done in Geno & Dunlap.
The other three though run hot & Cold.
1.) Bates- he showed how impactful he can be against the Chargers but then he lays an egg against the Browns.
2.) Lawson- one of the better pass rushers in the league. His only question is can he stay healthy.
3.) Jackson-  maybe the most frustrating player on the team? When he plays up to his billing he is all pro but he hasn't shown that enough.

3.) I think there is hope for ADG- he reminds me a lot like Devin Bush. Not sure about Wilson or Pratt though.

Even though I don't agree with your stance, let's assume you're right in that any of Atkins, Dunlap, Bates, WJ3, and Lawson could take over games anytime they want.

If that was true, why haven't they done so in the first two games this year, or help win more games last year?
If they truly could take over games anytime they want, I'd expect them to have double-digit sacks and TFLs (for DL) or 6+ turnovers every year.

The closest one I would say is truly that guy is probably Atkins, but I dunno if I'd put him in that category anymore either.

For the others...
WJ3 has never had more than 1 INT and 1 fumble recovery in a season.
Bates has not had more than 3 INTs and 1 FF and FR in a season.
Lawson has never had more than 8.5 sacks and 8 TFLs in a season.
Dunlap had only 1 season with double-digit sacks and TFLs, and that was 5 years ago.

I think all of those guys are good players, but only Atkins is the only one who has been a true consistent game changer throughout his career IMO. Dunlap is obviously next closest. The other 3 haven't shown enough game changing plays yet to be close to that.

(09-23-2020, 06:17 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The thing that will haunt us for several seasons to come will be allowing Pitt to leap frog us and take Devon Bush. He looks terrible in that mustard and black, he should have been in stripes.

I will take a starting LT over an undersized LB with a top 11 pick every time.  I have zero regret about the Bush situation.

That being said, even if he would have been on the board at 11, he wasn't going to be the pick.