(10-27-2015, 07:25 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But haven't we been pretty good at picking up guys off waivers or in supplemental drafts or undrafted FAs?

Burfict wasn't drafted, right? He was an undrafted FA, right? And don't forget Ahmad Brooks. He was a supplemental draft guy, right?

Not that this really changes your point, but it seems that as long as we didn't draft them between the 3rd and 7th rounds, we're pretty good at getting LBs.

I agree....and also we have had other needs in the draft....Right off the bat Palmer was drafted because Akili Smith stunk big time....and then Dalton needed drafted....Gresham and AJ Green and Eifert were needed to catch and other receivers were drafted...for blocking Jones and Smith and Zietler were drafted...RBs were drafted such as Irons who got injured early. Luckily Benson who had been a top pick at Chicago saved the day until Gio and Hill were drafted....Bengals have drafted DB's a lot in Joseph, Hall, Kirkpatrick, Dennard.......and the D Line was made awesome by drafting Atkins and Dunlap.....So there have been other areas of need and it is hard to complain about how this team was built when many coaches say  we have more talent than most teams in the NFL and have had 4 straight play-off seasons and at 6-0 are heading back, this time to win. 

I have seen drafts that the Bengals probably did want a LB, but the top LBs were picked right before our pick. This is why Harrison or Hawk were brought in, Hawk fitting our 4-3 better than Harrison who is more of a D Lineman than a LB. . ....I hope we win the Super Bowl and draft 32nd, but that means the top LB's will be gone again. Maybe we can get a good one in round 2.  We should have been set with Pollack and Thurman, but even that was 10 years and 10 drafts ago. ...but, good LB's were picked up here and there over the years. I have been wanting a top LB in the last few drafts, but they were going fast before we picked, so Bengals took Best Available Athlete at other positions  Still, the Bengals have more good young talent than most teams in the NFL.  The team is 6-0 and is keeping the scores down, so our LB's must be doing something right. 

Over the years there has been Marvin bashing, but at 6-0 on the season, this may be the time to give the coaches and players some respect and credit. 

Just my opinion, but I've thought for a while that Marvin thought he could coach a later LBer up. That he could turn a third, fourth or fifth round pick into the next Ray Lewis. Just find a guy with the right size/build and then coach him into bein a better player.

The trouble is, that's a rarity, even for programs that are really good at developing certain positions. For whatever reason — and I couldn't even guess — we aren't good at developing LBers. CBs, yeah. Linemen, yeah. WRs, yeah. We can take a third or fourth round wide receiver or linemen and have a quality player in a couple years, but we don't develop linebackers that way.

This presumes that the 5 of 15 who earned starting positions on the Bengals' roster and elsewhere (Thurman, Brooks, Johnson, Maualuga, Rivers---not even counting Pollack) is too low a percentage.

Is it? Is one in three evidence of a failure, by NFL standards?

Doesn't seem that way. In how many of Marvin's years has LB play been suspect? How is his Pro Bowl MLB-less defensive team currently top ten in at least three categories including: Ave. Points Allowed, Yards Per Play, and First Downs Allowed? Does that correlate in any way to a 33% positional draft success rate?

Does signing a Dhani Jones factor into the assessment of Marvin's eye for LBs, considering Jones was lured after a lackluster 8-8 season marred by offseason arrests?

Meh. That's what a bye week'll do to ya.

(10-27-2015, 10:53 PM)blt4584 Wrote: Can a 6th round pick really be a bust in the first place?

This.

I honestly only throw the bust tag on guys who flame out in the top 15 picks of the draft.

Maulugas fine with where we picked him and how hes played, and how is a damn 6th rounder a whiff? Wtf were you expecting from 6-7th rounder?

I think it is annoying when he drafts DE and converts them to LB, I don't think that has ever worked. I think whenever you try to project someone to a different position then what they played in college the bust factor goes way up.

(10-27-2015, 07:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First Round
David Pollack '05....Looked like a solid starter but not a first round star.
Keith Rivers '08.....WHIFF

Second Round
Odell Thurman '05....Looked like potential star, but had more red flags than almost any player in draft history....WHIFF
Ray Maualuga '09.....Not as bad as many people here claim, but did not live up to being the #38 pick in the draft.

Third Round
Caleb Miller '04..........WHIFF
Landon Johnson '04....Started early in his career due to guys in front of him getting hurt.  Eventually developed into a decent starter.
Ahmad Brooks '06......WHIFF
Dontay Moch '11........WHIFF
Paul Dawson '15.........No Grade.  Too early.

Fourth Round
Roddrick Muckelroy '10....WHIFF
Sean Porter '13...............WHIFF

Others
Khalid Abdullah (5th) '03.....WHIFF
A.J. Nicholson (5th) '06.......WHIFF
Angelo Craig (7th) '08.........WHIFF
Marquise Flowers (6th) '14...WHIFF


I will not count Pollack as a whiff, but even giving Marvin the benefit of the doubt on that one his record at drafting linebackers is abysmal.

When he first got here he took small fast linebackers (Abdullah, Johnson, Miller).  Landon Johnson claimed that by the end of his rookies season when he was starting at MLB he weighed less than 220.  Later in his career he added weight and played some decent LB for us.  But other than Johnson, Maualuga and Rivers were the only ones who started more than one season.  

Let that sink in for a minute.  In a decade plus 3 years of drafting college players the best LBs Marvin has ever taken were Landon Johnson, Keith Rivers, and Ray Maualuga.  And Rivers was the #9 overall pick in the draft.

Right now I am just trying to be objective and not judge Dawson based on Marvin's past record of drafting LBs.

No way you can really judge the 2 first round picks.... because of injuries,, what I think it says more is that they don;t seem to value LB's as high picks and have used a few free agents to be starters.

(10-28-2015, 11:23 AM)Benton Wrote: Just my opinion, but I've thought for a while that Marvin thought he could coach a later LBer up. That he could turn a third, fourth or fifth round pick into the next Ray Lewis. Just find a guy with the right size/build and then coach him into bein a better player.

The trouble is, that's a rarity, even for programs that are really good at developing certain positions. For whatever reason — and I couldn't even guess — we aren't good at developing LBers. CBs, yeah. Linemen, yeah. WRs, yeah. We can take a third or fourth round wide receiver or linemen and have a quality player in a couple years, but we don't develop linebackers that way.

I'd say that's how I feel right now. After take Rivers and Maualuga and neither one becoming a star, Marvin seems to take a chance on finding diamonds in the rough. Burfict is the only guy who we "coached up" but the guy already had 1st round talent. We just had to fix what is between his ears. We just seem content with mediocre LBs.

LBs who leave here tend to not do much on their new teams for a few years. Landon Johnson played 3 more seasons after he left here and his tackle totals never matched his worst season here. Skuta went to SF and basically started off as just a ST before developing into a good rotational player for them. I can only imagine what will happen to Lamur if he moves on after this season.

(10-28-2015, 04:40 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I'd say that's how I feel right now. After take Rivers and Maualuga and neither one becoming a star, Marvin seems to take a chance on finding diamonds in the rough. Burfict is the only guy who we "coached up" but the guy already had 1st round talent. We just had to fix what is between his ears. We just seem content with mediocre LBs.

LBs who leave here tend to not do much on their new teams for a few years. Landon Johnson played 3 more seasons after he left here and his tackle totals never matched his worst season here. Skuta went to SF and basically started off as just a ST before developing into a good rotational player for them. I can only imagine what will happen to Lamur if he moves on after this season.

Speaking of Dan Skuta. Who saw that coming? In his last 16 games played he has 6.5 sacks and 3 FF.

Not sure if it's coaching, scheme, or what, but glad to see him succeed even if it wasn't with the Bengals.

(10-28-2015, 04:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Speaking of Dan Skuta. Who saw that coming? In his last 16 games played he has 6.5 sacks and 3 FF.

Not sure if it's coaching, scheme, or what, but glad to see him succeed even if it wasn't with the Bengals.

When I saw his contract with the Jags, I was surprised at how big it was. However, I figured Dan could justify it. I got to see plenty of him when he moved onto San Francisco and he definitely seemed like a different player.

(10-28-2015, 11:23 AM)Benton Wrote: The trouble is, that's a rarity, even for programs that are really good at developing certain positions. For whatever reason — and I couldn't even guess — we aren't good at developing LBers. CBs, yeah. Linemen, yeah. WRs, yeah. We can take a third or fourth round wide receiver or linemen and have a quality player in a couple years, but we don't develop linebackers that way.

Past couple of years, I'd say it all comes down to

Mark Carrier / Vance Joseph

VS.

Paul 'golden corral' Guenther

(10-27-2015, 08:39 PM)pally Wrote: Porter should get an incomplete at the moment.  He's just been snake bit by the injury bug.  Hopefully he'll show us something good when he comes off of PUP

More like Flowers who is younger and has only had one bad injury.

As the other poster said, Porter seems to be made of glass.

(10-27-2015, 07:26 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Marvin is a great LB coach, but I think he overestimates his ability to train up any scrub that comes in here. We are certainly seeing the effects of settling for UDFA LB's for the last few years.

How many teams in college even run the 4-3 anymore? It seems like every year, all of the highly graded LB prospects are edge rushers from 3-4 schemes. For what is available that fits our defensive  scheme, Burfict and Dawson could be great picks.... but only time will tell. I just don't know how easy it is to find NFL level 4-3 linebackers anymore. Maybe I'm off on this, the only great 4-3 backer (who wasn't mainly an edge rusher) I can think of lately that got drafted was Luke Keuckly.

4-3 Defenses.  The Bengals do have a LB who ran a Pro-Style 4-3 defense during his tenure in College.  Trevor Roach, UDFA played MLB at Nebraska and is currently on the Bengals Practice Squad.  He shined during the pre-season, but with so many Veterans in front of him, it was a forgone conclusion that he was probably not going to make the 53 man roster.  No Problem,  He is now under Coach Marvin's development process for rookie players.  Roach has a high football IQ and the athleticism to play on Sunday's.  

Now some will say.  Okay, if he is that good, why hasn't he gone to another team?  Good question.  Only 3 out of the top 30 ILB's available for the 2015 Draft are starting or playing any significant time in the NFL.  So, one answer is that there just aren't many Rookie LB's playing right now.  The next answer, how do you know, unless you are in Roach's shoes, that he hasn't been approached to move to another team and declined the offer.    Think about it.  The Bengals are moving along very nicely right now.  Why jump from the battleship so that you can be the crew of rusty cargo freighter.   From a business and future opportunities prospective, I'd stay with the Bengals too. 

IMO - Once Burfict is back AND he is up to his Pro-Bowl form, There will be few leaks in the Bengals LB Corp.  I do agree though that Dawson does need to get more snaps, even if it is in a game where it's now garbage time and the Bengals are just wrapping things up.  He needs to build his confidence and play at NFL speed, which is totally different from College Speed. 

Ahmad Brooks wasn't a whiff. He was just a whiff for the Bengals.
Dan Skuta, UDFA, solid NFL player.

(10-28-2015, 04:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Speaking of Dan Skuta. Who saw that coming? In his last 16 games played he has 6.5 sacks and 3 FF.

Not sure if it's coaching, scheme, or what, but glad to see him succeed even if it wasn't with the Bengals.

Happy for Skuta was sad to see him go was a solid backup for us.

Thurman and Pollak showed great signs as to giving us one of the best linebacking corps in the NFL. Sadly, injury and stupidity ruined that.

Rivers was a first round talent and many thought Maualuga was as well. Rivers has been given injury excuses, but he's just been overall solid. Not terrible. But not great. Maualuga has had some terrible seasons, but also decent ones. Been a solid starter who needs improved upon.

Landon Johnson did extremely well.

Those are your 5 guys worth noting that Marvin has drafted that turned out to do well for the Bengals, even if it was for a short time.

However, the Bengals are going to need a linebacker in next year's draft. And hopefully they'll start Paul Dawson before the season is over.

(10-29-2015, 12:05 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Thurman and Pollak showed great signs as to giving us one of the best linebacking corps in the NFL. Sadly, injury and stupidity ruined that.

Rivers was a first round talent and many thought Maualuga was as well. Rivers has been given injury excuses, but he's just been overall solid. Not terrible. But not great. Maualuga has had some terrible seasons, but also decent ones. Been a solid starter who needs improved upon.

Landon Johnson did extremely well.

Those are your 5 guys worth noting that Marvin has drafted that turned out to do well for the Bengals, even if it was for a short time.

However, the Bengals are going to need a linebacker in next year's draft. And hopefully they'll start Paul Dawson before the season is over.

What I'll say about Rivers is that he was lucky to be in the 2008 draft. It was pretty much a week class. Rivers had the highest ceiling of the other LBs, but a lot of analysts said that Rivers was more of a "what you see is what you get" kind of player. He looked good until his jaw injury, but he just never improved on that.

As for Landon, I liked the guy, but again, nothing special. He just played around some lesser talent that helped him look good. Plus, the guy was small and had a tendency to get dragged. He would make contact and the player would still go 3-4 yards before going down.

This year's 4/3 LB class is better than last years, so i think we could bite early.