(10-29-2020, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lou wants to coach like an authoritarian, but he has done nothing to earn the respect of veterans.  That will always be a problem.

It will be a problem at the start, and probably has been. Which is why it takes a coach a few seasons before you really know if he's going to be successful or not.

He came in to Marvin's players, who presumably liked the systems well enough to sign contracts and stay here. It takes time to either win those guys over to a new system, or to replace them.

Carlos was great here, but if he's stuck in the Marvin mindset, I'm ok moving on. 

Should have traded him to the lions. But MB's eyes lit up when he got that 5m back.

So much for teaching anyone a lesson.

All AJ's a-bout-face did was get him stuck a Bengal for the rest of the year. That's who MB should have rewarded with a trade to a contender.

(10-29-2020, 05:31 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Not very high on Zac at this point, as I think he's in over his head, but at the same time...having Mike Brown as your boss sure the hell doesn't do you any favors either. Maybe Zac was arrogant enough, or naive enough, to think he could overcome the family. You might be able to convince Mike and the gang to do certain things or try something new here and there, but as Mike said, no one's going to 'step on his toes.' 

Oh I'm not trying to take up for ZT in any way. I have very serious doubts he's ever gonna get this team over the hump.

In fact I'm leaning pretty hard towards ZT just being ML 2.0 Has some good attributes (not sure I've identified any with ZT yet ?) but just isn't a very good "in game" coach.

I've tried hard to give ZT the benefit of the doubt but it's quickly getting to the point where the excuses are running out.

(10-29-2020, 05:41 PM)jj22 Wrote: Should have traded him to the lions. But MB's eyes lit up when he got that 5m back.

So much for teaching anyone a lesson.

All AJ's a-bout-face did was get him stuck a Bengal for the rest of the year. That's who MB should have rewarded with a trade to a contender.

I didn't quite follow that part of the story.

They said they had an offer in place to ship him to the Lions, but Carlos didn't want to go there.  Well, who cares what he wants?  This guy is going to demand to be let go or traded, to the point of putting his house up for sale on Twitter, and he gets to pick where he ends up?

F' that.  You send him wherever you get the best return.  We're not running the Make a Wish Foundation here.

On the 5 mil... I could be wrong, but I think Carlos offered to forfeit the remaining 5 mil if he were released, which lines up with what he had left on his deal last week.  It was fully guaranteed, so he would have gotten paid regardless of whether or not he was here.  So I think he was just forfeiting his guarantees to facilitate a release.

Now, if he paid them 5 mil to be traded?  I don't even know if that's allowed.  His remaining base salary is now off the books, and transfers to Seattle.  He'd essentially be giving back base earnings from weeks 1-7.  If he did do that, we definitely don't get that cap space back.  And I would think the league would frown upon owners take cash payments from players to get rid of them.  It's almost like extortion on our part.

This whole thing is just absolutely nuts.  Only with this team and family do fans spend their time speculating such wild things.

(10-29-2020, 05:51 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've tried hard to give ZT the benefit of the doubt but it's quickly getting to the point where the excuses are running out.

Same. 

(10-29-2020, 05:33 PM)jj22 Wrote:  These complaints are coming from Marvin guys who would have been long gone when any other new regime came to town. 

No new coach cuts every single player.  They all keep the good and get rid of the bad.  Dunlap averaged 9 sacks and 25 QB hits over the previous 7 seasons.  there is not a coach in the league who would dump a player like that.  Those are the guys you build around.

(10-29-2020, 05:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: They've been bad on D for a long time. Lou isn't the common denominator. They are.

Dunlap has a track record of success.  You can't blame the best players on a defense for the defense being bad.  That is like saying Burrow has to go because the offense is ranked in the 20's.

Lou has zero track record.  The "common denominator" of his previous coaching experience has been failure.  And that is all we are seeing here.

(10-29-2020, 05:51 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I didn't quite follow that part of the story.

They said they had an offer in place to ship him to the Lions, but Carlos didn't want to go there.  Well, who cares what he wants?  This guy is going to demand to be let go or traded, to the point of putting his house up for sale on Twitter, and he gets to pick where he ends up?

F' that.  You send him wherever you get the best return.  We're not running the Make a Wish Foundation here.

On the 5 mil... I could be wrong, but I think Carlos offered to forfeit the remaining 5 mil if he were released, which lines up with what he had left on his deal last week.  It was fully guaranteed, so he would have gotten paid regardless of whether or not he was here.  So I think he was just forfeiting his guarantees to facilitate a release.

Now, if he paid them 5 mil to be traded?  I don't even know if that's allowed.  His remaining base salary is now off the books, and transfers to Seattle.  He'd essentially be giving back base earnings from weeks 1-7.  If he did do that, we definitely don't get that cap space back.  And I would think the league would frown upon owners take cash payments from players to get rid of them.  It's almost like extortion on our part.

This whole thing is just absolutely nuts.  Only with this team and family do fans spend their time speculating such wild things.

Paul Dehner with why he thought Mike didn't want to trade Carlos:

'Mike Brown didn’t want it to come to this. Of course he didn’t. Brown holds an affection for Dunlap and in all the years covering the team, I think I’ve seen Dunlap sitting in Brown’s cart talking to the owner during practice more than any other player. Dunlap’s an outgoing guy and two-time Walter Payton Man of the Year nominee for the Bengals, Brown rewarded him with not one, but two lucrative extensions, so this makes sense. There was a long-standing relationship.'

'The impossible circumstances forced ownership’s hand as it came down to picking between the core message of the head coach they have invested in for their future or siding with the aging former star, who would inevitably be gone after the season.'

'This would have been a no-brainer that happened long ago for most teams. Happened long before any Instagram Live chip-eating sessions or Zoom blowups after seeing his demotion on a whiteboard.'

(10-29-2020, 06:03 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Paul Dehner with why he thought Mike didn't want to trade Carlos:

'Mike Brown didn’t want it to come to this. Of course he didn’t. Brown holds an affection for Dunlap and in all the years covering the team, I think I’ve seen Dunlap sitting in Brown’s cart talking to the owner during practice more than any other player. Dunlap’s an outgoing guy and two-time Walter Payton Man of the Year nominee for the Bengals, Brown rewarded him with not one, but two lucrative extensions, so this makes sense. There was a long-standing relationship.'

And it's a good quality MB posses with the heart and loyalty towards employees, he's a good man. The problem with this though is he's not running a mom and pop hardware store.

(10-29-2020, 06:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And it's a good quality MB posses with the heart and loyalty towards employees, he's a good man. The problem with this though is he's not running a mom and pop hardware store.

Yeah, I've always said Mike is a 'good person'. The problem is he's also a very bad 'football person'. 

Every issue with this organization comes down to one man: Mike Brown. I don't blame Zac, Lou, or Dunlap for this situation. The coaching staff did the right thing when they tried to move Carlos Dunlap and rebuild with players who fit the system. Even if Dunlap was a good fit for the system, he still should have been traded to a contender so we could have reloaded with younger players. Now we lost Dunlap for almost nothing in return.

When it became clear to Carlos Dunlap that Mike Brown didn't want to let him go, he had two choices. Be a class act and rot on the bench for the last year or two of his career, or become a cancer and get another chance on another team. He did what he felt was in his best interest.

Mike Brown wouldn't trade Dunlap because he's a moron. Zac, Lou, and Dunlap all look bad because they're handicapped by the idiot running the show. Almost anyone in this board could do a better job managing the franchise.

(10-29-2020, 06:07 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And it's a good quality MB posses with the heart and loyalty towards employees, he's a good man. The problem with this though is he's not running a mom and pop hardware store.

This is not a loyalty issue. If it were Dunlap would’ve been traded week 8 last year.

This is an issue of being an ass backwards owner.

But hey, at least we didn’t make other teams better, or whatever.

(10-29-2020, 02:33 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: John spoke with Carlos's dad and they highlighted the following:

• Didn't respect Lou, thought he was incompetent, upset they spent a lot of money of D players but not D Coord 
• Lou is very authoritative, his way or you don't play, doesn't really take advice from veterans
• They discussed how they're planning to use him, but wasn't as authentic as with Geno, 
• found out about demotion on white board leading up to week 5
• Every since beginning of year they've been trying to offload Dunlap
• ZT "essentially" (said he couldn't say exactly what he said) but he wanted Dunlap off the team (he made it sound like he said that in front of other players as well)
• Front office did not want to trade dunlap, so ZT devalued his value by benching him for the sake of changing their mind (this is f**in awful, awful)
• The Browns game Dunlap confronted Lou about shitty playcalling/personal, Lou cursed him out, so forth and so on
• Originally wanted to trade to Lions, Dunlap said no. Dunlap paid 5 million back to not go to Lions
  

If this is even half true Zac & Lou & the rest should be gone. Period. Let Simmons take over. Bring in real professionals after season.

(10-29-2020, 04:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lots of kids want ice cream, but that does not mean they will like shit flavored ice cream.

Fans are not upset at Lou for running more of a 3-4 hybrid.  They are upset by the fact that our defense can't stop anyone.

Dude I just spit water all over my screen, thanks for the laugh.  
Lou's defense is worse than shit flavored ice cream.

(10-29-2020, 03:48 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Has this even been established yet? Dunlap wanted out before this season?

It appears that way, judging from the podcast.

(10-29-2020, 04:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'd take 2 win seasons over Marvin but only if the replacement weren't a bland dumbass like ZT.  Maybe we could be like a movie where a 9 year old kid is the HC, or a kangaroo or something.  For THAT I'd take 2 wins.

I think an orphaned Doogie Houser-esque kid of football switches bodies with his pet parrot and coaches the Bengals to 2 glorious wins would be epic.

Joe Mixon says he loves this "chirpy little guy" and adopts him.

Fade to black...

Credits roll.

(10-29-2020, 05:41 PM)jj22 Wrote: Should have traded him to the lions. But MB's eyes lit up when he got that 5m back.

So much for teaching anyone a lesson.

All AJ's a-bout-face did was get him stuck a Bengal for the rest of the year. That's who MB should have rewarded with a trade to a contender.

The Lions have won 9 games in a span where we have won 3.  The luxury of trading unhappy players to worse teams isn't really in the cards at the moment.

(10-29-2020, 04:07 PM)samhain Wrote: Yeah.  Also seem to remember most of the people here saying there was no way we'd switch to a 3-4 due to the top-end personnel on defense being better fits in a 4-3, mainly Geno.  

It's the DC's fault because he's a shitty DC first and foremost, and secondly because he's too arrogant to make adjustments to his system with respect to the talent he actually had on hand as opposed to what he wishes he had.

Well..... wouldn't running a hybrid and having special packages for 97 and 96 be making an adjustment to his system? One is playing all he can due to his injury, the other sulked and pouted.

Look, I'm not standing up for Anarumo at all, and I'm not trying to shit on Los. The fact is, if the damn turds in the FO would have listened to the staff and Los, ALL of this could have been avoided. Trade the guy, make him happy and do right by one of your all time greats, and get players that fit what you're trying to build.

Initially, I was a little miffed at Los for appearing childish. I should have known better. It wasn't him, it wasn't Lou, it was that 80 plus year old ***** baby behind all of this. Talk about a moron! Mikey trump's them all!!!! LOL.

(10-29-2020, 04:23 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: If they're determined to switch to he 3-4 or hybrid of such, they should bring in Wade Phillips. 

At this point, yes. 

(10-29-2020, 05:56 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Same. 

I also agree, so we make a threesome.  Er, wait that came out wrong...wait, no it didn't.

Dunlap is a 4-3 DE, not a 3-4 OLB. That is pretty much what it comes down to. They shoulve traded him last year.

On that note, Lou has a lot to prove. I want to be on board with him but this D sucks bad, and his resume kind of sucks too. I like his personality, I am rooting for him to be a good DC, but he has a long way to go to prove that in a short amount of time, and it seems like every week makes him look worse lately. The Ravens game was kind of sort of impressive, but beyond that our defense have been the kings of meltdown.

And as far as Hunt and Kareem's pff rating go. Those are good numbers for sure. Very impressive, but did they pressure Baker much? Any sacks or QB hits, or hurries? Because we really need some of that. I'm not defending Carlos because I hate how he handled this and he wasnt playing good either. But the fact are just the facts. Right now Lou has A LOT to prove. He had a lot to prove right when he was hired considering his resume really isnt that good.