(11-06-2020, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well if you just look at a players best games then you get back to my original point that Burrow is no better than the average NFL QB this season.

You list three games with a passer rating over 105.  Eight QBs have at least 4 games with a passer rating that high.  Burrow is just 1 of 17 that have had three games with a passer rating over 105.

His highest rated game was 112.5.  This year 25 other QBs have had a game that good.  19 QBs have had multiple games with a passer rating as high as Burrow's single best game.

I mean, you said he hasn't been efficient.  I provided examples where he was effecient.

Regardless of your definition of the word vs. mine, I don't think you can argue that he's look extemely good for a rookie.  Especially a rookie with a terrible OL, a terrible run game, no elite WR1, and a bottom of the barrel TE.

Can we agree on that, that considering all of the above he's played outstanding for a rookie?

If we can then I'm not sure what argument you're trying to have.  That Joe Burrow isn't an elite QB yet?  I would definitely agree with that, as would most of the board I imagine.  So what debate are we having then?

(11-06-2020, 05:10 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Give me a break.

You believe in finding things to argue about on the internet.

No I do not.  That is not true.





Wait a minute.



What just happened here.

(11-06-2020, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But instead of getting caught up in radical extremism I will just post a simple fact.  This is from after the Ravens game.

"But on the occasions when the offensive line gave Burrow time to throw, he didn't help matters. According to NFL Next Gen, five of his seven sacks took longer than four seconds." 

Oh my God, a rookie QB isn't perfect!

Everyone stop what you're doing!  Quit praising this kid.  He's not as good as Mahomes, or Rodgers, or Wilson yet.  He may not even be a top 10 QB half way through his rookie season.

We really need to pump the brakes on the excitement about Joe Burrow.  Fred just provided proof.  Thank God, someone here believes in defending the truth, otherwise I would have never known.  I honestly had him ranked top 5.

As always, thanks for your service, Fred.  The board is better off with you setting everyone straight.

(11-06-2020, 05:20 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   So what debate are we having then?

The debate started with a comment that Burrow is a QB who could win a Super Bowl.

I responded that if what he has shown so far proves he could win a Super Bowl then 95% of the QBs in the league could win a Super Bowl.

If you agree with that then we have no debate.

(11-06-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The debate started with a comment that Burrow is a QB who could win a Super Bowl.

Yeah, so?  He could win a Super Bowl.

Brad Johnson won a Super Bowl.  So did Joe Flacco and Trent Dilfer.  Eli Manning won two of them.

What's wrong with saying Joe Burrow could win a Super Bowl?

(11-06-2020, 05:41 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Yeah, so?  He could win a Super Bowl.

Brad Johnson won a Super Bowl.  So did Joe Flacco and Trent Dilfer.  Eli Manning won two of them.

What's wrong with saying Joe Burrow could win a Super Bowl?

Playing for the Bengals or just in general?

(11-06-2020, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I responded that if what he has shown so far proves he could win a Super Bowl then 95% of the QBs in the league could win a Super Bowl.

Are those 95% of QB's you're referring to rookie QB's, playing behind a terrible OL?

(11-06-2020, 05:44 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Are those 95% of QB's you're referring to rookie QB's, playing behind a terrible OL?

No.

But you are talking about pretending what he will do in the future while i am talking about what he has done right now.

I agree he may develop into a very good NFL QB in the future, but he has not shown it on the filed yet.  He has never even played in a "big game" in the NFL.

(11-06-2020, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People accuse me of "just liking to argue" buy the fact is that I have to because everyone here is a radical extremist.  Any player/coach that is not a fan favorite is the worst piece of garbage who ever lived and would never even play on another NFL team, and every player that is a fan favorite is the greatest of all time.

I repeatedly say that I like Burrow and think he has what it takes to be a very good NFL QB, but the fact is that he has not won shit or played at an extremely efficient level.  I remember when so many people here said that winning head-to-head matchups with Hall of Fame QBs leading division champion teams meant nothing if it was in the regular season.  Now all Burrow has to do is "almost" beat a mediocre team and that is proof he can win a Super Bowl.  And "great QBs don't need great players around them because they make everyone better" has turned into "He'd be great if he only had a better O-line."

All I do is speak the truth of moderation instead of jumping on the radical extremist positions so many people here have, and I am accuse of "just wanting to argue".  But if I say a player is "not as bad as many people claim" the radical extremists come back with "Fred thinks Bobby Hart is an All-Pro."

I think what you do is look at raw numbers and you're not very well versed on watching how a player plays, what he does and under what circumstances he does it. 

(11-06-2020, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People accuse me of "just liking to argue" buy the fact is that I have to because everyone here is a radical extremist.  Any player/coach that is not a fan favorite is the worst piece of garbage who ever lived and would never even play on another NFL team, and every player that is a fan favorite is the greatest of all time.

I repeatedly say that I like Burrow and think he has what it takes to be a very good NFL QB, but the fact is that he has not won shit or played at an extremely efficient level.  I remember when so many people here said that winning head-to-head matchups with Hall of Fame QBs leading division champion teams meant nothing if it was in the regular season.  Now all Burrow has to do is "almost" beat a mediocre team and that is proof he can win a Super Bowl.  And "great QBs don't need great players around them because they make everyone better" has turned into "He'd be great if he only had a better O-line."

All I do is speak the truth of moderation instead of jumping on the radical extremist positions so many people here have, and I am accuse of "just wanting to argue".  But if I say a player is "not as bad as many people claim" the radical extremists come back with "Fred thinks Bobby Hart is an All-Pro."

Let's play a game. 

22 starters. 21 starters have no names they are either average or below average. You get to pick 1 player from this team to be the last starter. 

How many are you picking before Burrow. Remember the rest of the team is not better than middle of the road or worse. 

(11-06-2020, 06:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.

But you are talking about pretending what he will do in the future while i am talking about what he has done right now.

I agree he may develop into a very good NFL QB in the future, but he has not shown it on the filed yet.  He has never even played in a "big game" in the NFL.

He already is a very good QB. And it’s just killing you.

(11-06-2020, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never thought you would make it this easy to rove my point.

But instead of getting caught up in radical extremism I will just post a simple fact.  This is from after the Ravens game.

"But on the occasions when the offensive line gave Burrow time to throw, he didn't help matters. According to NFL Next Gen, five of his seven sacks took longer than four seconds." 

That should tell you something about yourself. Dig deep Youll understand someday and if not you’ll keep posting partial stats to prove a point your trying to make at the time without presenting the complete picture.

Pretty sure Fred was one of the 1% of Bengals fans who didn't want Burrow.

The truth is my friend there is a nice term around the Tr-State for Bengals fans who have accepted losing.... Fred is Bengalized.

(11-06-2020, 11:52 PM)QueenCity Wrote: Pretty sure Fred was one of the 1% of Bengals fans who didn't want Burrow.

The truth is my friend there is a nice term around the Tr-State for Bengals fans who have accepted losing.... Fred is Bengalized.

No, but he was leading the “it was only one year” charge. How’s that looking? LOL

Burrow has picked up right where he left off at LSU (at least in terms of setting records). The wins will come if he can overcome Zac Taylor. Rodgers did it in GB when he was stuck with McCarthy, so it is possible...

(11-03-2020, 02:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Before anyone thinks I've got absolutely mad, please know that I'm not letting one game completely change my mind on this team. (It was a really nice win though)

There are reports out now that the NFL is strongly considering moving to a 16 team (8 in each conference) playoffs for this season.  What they're saying that would make this all but inevitable is if any team has to cancel a game without a remaining bye, or if he a game is played where a team is forced to play missing multiple players.  Apparently, adding a week 18 is off the table.  This is where the expanded playoffs come in.

So, that is really the point of this thread.  The potential of expanded playoffs.  And according to Adam Schefter it's very likely to happen.

That changes things quite a bit.  Now, do I think that, even with 8 AFC's teams potentially getting in, that we have a great chance?  No.  But....but, it's not completely out of the question.

We currently sit at 2-5-1.  Even if we lose to the Steelers (we could beat them), which would put us at 2-6-1, all is not lost.  Are next 4 game are as follows:  @Washington, Giants, @ Dolphins, Cowboys.

Could we run those stretch of games?  Could we win 3 of 4?  What do we look like at 2-2?

If this team is sitting at, say, 5-7-1, we would at least be in the hunt for a final spot.  I'm not saying we'll get one, but at least the last month of the season would be exciting with meaningful games.

Now here's what we're looking at with the final 3 games: Steelers, @Texans, Ravens.

The Texans game is definitely winnable, as they stink and are in the midst of a complete regime change.  The Ravens, while very good, is the last week of the season.  What happens if they rest their starters?  And the Steelers, if you just chalked up next week as a loss, and can you automatically penciled them in for 0-2?

I'm not sold on this team at all, but a lot of these scenarios intrigue me.  And in a year like this, if we get to 7-8-1, that will give us a chance at the 8th spot.  If we somehow got to 8-7-1 then I'd guess we'd be all but a lock.

Just food for thought.  Might want to watch for the playoff developments, and keep your fingers crossed that we can at least make this interesting.

You are not alone.

But even assuming we get the B team vs Baltimore, asking this team to go 6-0 in winnable games when we've won, what, 2 of the last 20 one score games?

Boy, that's a big ask.

You youngbloods can't touch me.

I am so far ahead of you I am right behind you.





**Shaves back in silence and waits for signal**

Fred reminds me of those college philosophy professors. I'll leave it at that

(11-06-2020, 10:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And so far Burrow has not been able to win more than 2 games in 8 starts.

I think he has tons of potential, but he is not an elite QB yet.  He is putting up big yardage numbers just because he is throwing the ball more than any QB in the league.

If that were the case, every QB would throw it all the time.  He is putting bug yardage numbers because his team needs him to (not playing very good defense).  He has been slowed by one team, Baltimore.  And he will get another shot at them.  

Everyone has different definitions of elite.  Mine is the top 1%, so I have a fairly difficult definition because that means 1-2 QBs in the league are playing at an elite level right now.  So, by that definition, Burrow is not an elite QB yet.  However, Burrow is playing at a level where if his defense held the opponent to 24 points or less, I think Burrow would find a way to win.  I do not see that out of many NFL QBs today (and remember, we are not talking about the Brees, Brady, or Rogers of several years ago, we are talking about today).  I see Burrow as that top 5% of NFL QBs as they are playing today.  And he is getting better each week.  

(11-06-2020, 01:12 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: You don't really need statistics to see that Burrow is "remarkable".  All you need to do is watch the games.  Seeing what Burrow is doing now as a rookie compared to Dalton last year is truly amazing.  If he even had a half-ass OL, he'd be off the charts and this team would be a playoff contender I think.  

Things are coming together and even though we're a losing team, I think I'm having just as much fun watching what's developing as I did in 2015.  I really believe this team is going somewhere special.  Having this kid leading the team is awesome.

I wish the playcalling, like using screens against the blitz (duh!), had been where it has been the last two games early in the season.  The pounding he took against Philly, Cleveland (the first time), and Baltimore was so unnecessary.  That is Burrow, though.  Like at OSU when he was "live" as third string QB going against the Bosas and getting pounded snap after snap, he just keeps coming back after you. 

I remember hearing when Palmer said years ago about how he thought he had an easy completion down the seam and Ed Reed made a play on the ball and picked it off.  He said he couldn't believe how quickly he adjusted and never thought he could get to that pass.  That is what Burrow is figuring out now, and he is still improving.  He has played some very tough defenses this season, and although they only have two wins right now I believe he is ready to take the next step and start beating the best defenses.  

(11-06-2020, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People accuse me of "just liking to argue" buy the fact is that I have to because everyone here is a radical extremist.  Any player/coach that is not a fan favorite is the worst piece of garbage who ever lived and would never even play on another NFL team, and every player that is a fan favorite is the greatest of all time.

I repeatedly say that I like Burrow and think he has what it takes to be a very good NFL QB, but the fact is that he has not won shit or played at an extremely efficient level.  I remember when so many people here said that winning head-to-head matchups with Hall of Fame QBs leading division champion teams meant nothing if it was in the regular season.  Now all Burrow has to do is "almost" beat a mediocre team and that is proof he can win a Super Bowl.  And "great QBs don't need great players around them because they make everyone better" has turned into "He'd be great if he only had a better O-line."

All I do is speak the truth of moderation instead of jumping on the radical extremist positions so many people here have, and I am accuse of "just wanting to argue".  But if I say a player is "not as bad as many people claim" the radical extremists come back with "Fred thinks Bobby Hart is an All-Pro."

It makes me a radical extremist to say that Burrow is playing at a level that could win a Super Bowl?  

Right now, I see a very small list of QBs playing well enough to win a Super Bowl.  Imagine you are playing the Chiefs, since they are the defending champs.  Your defense needs a couple stops...a tipped ball INT, a pass defenses, etc. that gets the Chiefs to punt a couple times.  To beat them, you need a QB that can put up 30 on a very tough defense.  

I see the following QBs having proven that THIS year:

Mahommes
Wilson 
Rogers
Brady (albeit a little inconsistent)
Piggy 

I would put Burrow in that category right now based on the play I am witnessing.  This, despite a HORRIBLE offensive line (that is starting to improve to mediocre), a poor rushing attack, not much of a defense to speak of, Boyd and a rookie WR being his best weapons, and very questionable coaching decisions early in the season.  

He was robbed of a win against the Chargers, and the Colts, Browns (2), and Philly games were lost because his defense couldn't stop anything.  Give him HALF those games and he is sitting at 4-3-1.  So, you can point to only two wins, but I don't care who was quarterbacking our team in those situations, they would not have won those games, either.  I will further add that no QB has taken the pounding that Burrow has this year, and yet, he keeps coming after you.  

He has rejuvenated Gio.  He made Tate look like a Pro Bowler.  He is learning to manipulate the pocket with a very inconsistent lineup lining up in front of him.  He is doing it with an underperforming Green and Mixon.  

After witnessing all of this, I state that he is playing at a Super Bowl level, and that gets you to call me a radical extremist.  I guess we have different definitions of what that is as well.