(12-14-2020, 06:51 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Franchise WJ3. Would probably let Lawson walk. Not interested in a big money injury risk. But doing that would probably mean our front office would be playing the comp pick game and wouldn’t be willing to spend on an outside free agent if it meant losing the high comp pick losing Lawson would net.

I hate to franchise either one, but if I did it would be WJ3.  Plenty of pass rushers in round 2 and 3 this year, and the FA market as well.  Corner, not so much.  Problem is, franchising a corner is really expensive, and I'm not sure Jackson is worth it.  I'm a little hesitant about tagging guys and paying them a small fortune to underperform like we've seen with a certain other near 20m dollar player.

(12-14-2020, 10:16 PM)samhain Wrote: I hate to franchise either one, but if I did it would be WJ3.  Plenty of pass rushers in round 2 and 3 this year, and the FA market as well.  Corner, not so much.  Problem is, franchising a corner is really expensive, and I'm not sure Jackson is worth it.  I'm a little hesitant about tagging guys and paying them a small fortune to underperform like we've seen with a certain other near 20m dollar player.

Tagging WJ3 would be a lot less risky than AJ. He was on the wrong side of 30 and had an extensive injury history.

(12-14-2020, 02:21 PM)motoarch Wrote: I don't necessarily disagree but it felt like jackson was getting torched yesterday.

Same.   Seems like he's always getting burnt. OBJ made him his ***** ...

(12-14-2020, 03:24 PM)motoarch Wrote: Have you watched a game?  Hubbard is a beast.

I was wandering the same thing.. Hubbard was the only noticeable guy on defense sunday..

(12-14-2020, 11:30 PM)Tony Wrote: I was wandering the same thing.. Hubbard was the only noticeable guy on defense sunday..

I noticed how badly most of them sucked...

(12-14-2020, 10:16 PM)samhain Wrote: I hate to franchise either one, but if I did it would be WJ3.  Plenty of pass rushers in round 2 and 3 this year, and the FA market as well.  Corner, not so much.  Problem is, franchising a corner is really expensive, and I'm not sure Jackson is worth it.  I'm a little hesitant about tagging guys and paying them a small fortune to underperform like we've seen with a certain other near 20m dollar player.

Agreed... Frankly I'm ok with letting them both walk if they're gonna require big contracts to retain them. Neither one of them are worth the franchise tag.

(12-14-2020, 11:34 PM)jason Wrote: Agreed... Frankly I'm ok with letting them both walk if they're gonna require big contracts to retain them. Neither one of them are worth the franchise tag.

This is logical to me. If you have a good or a great defense? Sure, you'd think about paying out the nose for two CBs, or paying your rotational pass rush guy who was previously injured. I'd offer each of them fair money, not blockbuster contracts. Save that for a guard or an OT. 

I would rather keep WJ3 if we have to decide between him and Lawson. Both guys are great pieces for our defense, but WJ3's at 100% definitely seems better than a 100% Lawson. Now, are we going to keep WJ3? Honestly, I see us tagging him and then letting him walk after the following season. There's rumors/speculation that he's frustrated with coaches not letting him shadow the #1 WR. He liked the system under Marvin and Guenther, but he HATED Austin's system. It also seems that he's just not a fan of Lou when you see his body language on the field. He definitely doesn't have that pep in his step that we saw in 2017.


I think our new DC next season needs to immediately get ahold of WJ3 as soon as he's hired and talk to him. Maybe he'll be more apt to re-sign after that.

(12-14-2020, 11:34 PM)jason Wrote: Agreed... Frankly I'm ok with letting them both walk if they're gonna require big contracts to retain them. Neither one of them are worth the franchise tag.

Same

We have to focus on the O and D lines - first ! We have to build the foundation. Both are ok/good players but neither is worth breaking the bank on.

Because of his age, Lawson is probably going to be the 2nd biggest pass-rushing FA behind Bud Dupree. Really good pass rushers don't tend to hit the market at 25, they usually do for their second contract sometime around 30 so when they do they usually get paid.

Corner will be a little more interesting as Jackson is 28, which puts him in a more crowded area if we are looking for similar prospects. Looking at potential FA stop gaps we could get instead makes me think letting Jackson walk could be the better move if it is either or. I think you'd still look to invest a higher pick on a corner, but I would feel okay going from Jackson to say Charvarius Ward then I would be going from Lawson to some other stree FA.

I would re-sign both. Willie Jackson is a very good outside corner, better than Waynes, and you need two good ones, at least.

Willie is better than people realize. He's just playing in a bad scheme behind no pass rush and LBers who can't lead the team in tackles.

Lawson only has 4.5 sacks. I'd re-sign him, but has anyone noticed that 4.5 sacks over 13 games isn't really that much. Bengals, as a whole, have only had 15, which is so low that I can't recall a team having so few. Granted there are 3 games left, but that's very, very low.

With this coaching staff I dunno who is going to resign. I feel like in the correct scheme WJ3 could be a superstar, but he's fallin off because of coach turnover and injuries. If WJ3 goes to a place like the Bills or New England he could have a great career. I don't know what to think about Lawson because the guy just doesn't seem to fit in our scheme at all. I really think next year they need to commit to a 3-4 if they keep him

(12-14-2020, 02:20 PM)Synric Wrote: Both these guys are having solid years on a poor team in contract years.

Carl Lawson is proving he is a 3 down player and while only having 5 sacks he is applying pressure because he is top 5 in the league in QB Hits.

William Jackson is allowing just slightly above a 50% allowed catch percentage and has the same for his career. He has also cleaned up his tackling and become a solid outside run defender.

I have seen some people thinking these two will get less than 10m a year in free agency but I don't agree. WJ3 will be one of the best corners on the open market because of his under 30 age and his play.  Teams will are always looking for good pass rushers that can also play the run.

My estimate is 10 to 12m a year for Carl Lawson and 12 to 14m a year for WJ3.

Just imagine how good Lawson's numbers likely are if we could generate ANY pressure up the gut.  I'd like to keep him here. I'm indifferent on Jackson.

(12-14-2020, 03:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not so much this year, but his first couple seasons he was. He was quickly becoming one of my favorite players, but he’s been disappointing as of late.

Jmo, but I think a very weak middle of the line is effecting anyone coming off the edge.

(12-16-2020, 01:04 PM)Wyche Wrote: Jmo, but I think a very weak middle of the line is effecting anyone coming off the edge.

Since when have we ever had an elite-level pass rusher on the edge?

(12-14-2020, 11:34 PM)jason Wrote: Agreed... Frankly I'm ok with letting them both walk if they're gonna require big contracts to retain them. Neither one of them are worth the franchise tag.

What would be the trade market for them if we tagged either with a view to trading?

They're not elite players but they are above average players hitting their primes and who may benefit from being at a better run franchise, playing alongside better players.

The salary hit on the tag would be restrictive but if it allowed the trading partner the opportunity to discuss a long term deal first?

I'd say the same as I always do, replace them, but only if you can find someone better at the position. I'm not for letting players go if we have no upgrade.

These two players are tough to evaluate with a short career of actually playing a full 16 games season. They both have had some injury's in the past. They both are really talented players but I see flaws in game in both players. I think some off that is do to scheme's, lack of coaching, overall morale and desire. They both are truly gifted athletes. Now Carl Lawson is a young player in his prime whom is a B Tier player to me. He is not a game changer but a good solid player that will give you some qb pressures and maybe 7 sacks a year. Now he needs a lot of talent around him to excel and the right coaching staff to push him even further which we do not have. He has all the traits to be great but injuries are a concern. He is not worth a huge payday in my opinion. William Jackson III he is an outstanding player that can excel in the right scheme and coaching. He is a great one on one man defender in coverage. Now he has improved his game with his tackling and run defense. I think he needs to still learn how to become a good pressing corner but needs to build up his strength to compete with bigger receiver's. I think he would have a better career in a highly aggressive man to man defense. Our defense scheme right now our coaches does not cater to his strengths which goes all in wrong with our coaching staff. If he could improve his ball hawking ability and injury history he would be a player. I would be willing to keep him only if he fits the scheme we are using and playing. But in all WH3 does not seem to want to be here and I can not blame him. I would not give him top tier money. He still is a B+ player and can be even better player in the long run than Lawson if he is in the right scheme. WJ3 could improve to be A tier player and shutdown corner. So if the Bengals can get him to stay and he believes in this coaching staff present or future. Then I say work on a 4year deal around 12mill or less. Which we would like less but not in this day in age. Lawson I would try to save for a cheap cheap price but would not be surprised if he does not return.

(12-16-2020, 01:21 PM)Okeana Wrote: Since when have we ever had an elite-level pass rusher on the edge?

Who said we did? Dunlap was very good, but never elite.

(12-16-2020, 04:08 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: What would be the trade market for them if we tagged either with a view to trading?

They're not elite players but they are above average players hitting their primes and who may benefit from being at a better run franchise, playing alongside better players.

The salary hit on the tag would be restrictive but if it allowed the trading partner the opportunity to discuss a long term deal first?

I'm not sure... But I wish the Bengals would focus on being a better run franchise so players could thrive here. It wasn't that long ago that we had guys playing at a very high level in every phase of the game.