(12-29-2020, 06:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: The last two SB winners were in the bottom half of the league in defense.  

It's a bit silly to expect a second year QB to carry the offense.  We all hope that Burrow can become a Tom Brady and make due with no name skill guys, but he isn't there yet.  He might never hit that stage, either.  

KC was the #7 scoring defense in 2020 and patriots were #7 in scoring defense in 2019.  
KC was # 5 in QB rating in 2019 and NE was #6 in QB Rating in 2018. So to say neither defense was good is an outrageous statement.

Completely disagree Burrow is way ahead of schedule when it comes to mastering the position. Anyways he has a #1 Wr, a #2 Wr, a franchise LT, and an elite back in Mixon. The  pantry has a lot of stuff in it on the offensive side. 
Meanwhile the defense could lose there three best pass rushers and best CB in the off-season. Defense is more of a need than offense as it stands.

(12-29-2020, 05:59 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You do need a good defense, but I am going to place more value on a secondary player than a linebacker. The idea is if you give Burrow special weapons around him, when you believe he is a special QB, you have the potential to get special results. 

If he is a special QB he is going to get special results no matter who is around him. We don't need a third WR in the first RD to make that happen. Look at what Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady have done with their careers not elite supporting casts on offense.

(12-29-2020, 06:43 PM)Synric Wrote: The way Penn State used Parsons reminds me of how Devin White was used at LSU. He was used to attack downhill. Which is how he should be used for at least his first year in the NFL.

I think White is a good comp and his struggles so far are probably what Parsons would see as well. White has been really good rushing and playing downhill while getting picked on in coverage.

(12-29-2020, 07:09 PM)J24 Wrote: If he is a special QB he is going to get special results no matter who is around him. We don't need a third WR in the first RD to make that happen. Look at what Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady have done with their careers not elite supporting casts on offense.

Aaron Rodgers has had consistently good receivers. Between Jennings, Driver, Nelson, and Adams, he always had great targets out wide. I'm not making an argument for Chase, necessarily, I would like offensive line. Looking at Brady and his career consistency, he has usually had great offensive lines and that has been an enabler for Brady. Throw in the fact that he had Rob for nine seasons, who is arguably the most dominant TE in NFL history, he was able to make things work. I would love to give Burrow that kind of protection and give him all day to throw to Boyd and Tee because I think those two guys are really talented. I would love to give him a TE, but if we can get OL value for Burrow, I will take that all day.

I am simply saying that the value you are going to get from a player like Chase is likely going to be greater than from a player like Parsons. 

(12-29-2020, 07:27 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Aaron Rodgers has had consistently good receivers. Between Jennings, Driver, Nelson, and Adams, he always had great targets out wide. I'm not making an argument for Chase, necessarily, I would like offensive line. Looking at Brady and his career consistency, he has usually had great offensive lines and that has been an enabler for Brady. Throw in the fact that he had Rob for nine seasons, who is arguably the most dominant TE in NFL history, he was able to make things work. I would love to give Burrow that kind of protection and give him all day to throw to Boyd and Tee because I think those two guys are really talented. I would love to give him a TE, but if we can get OL value for Burrow, I will take that all day.

I am simply saying that the value you are going to get from a player like Chase is likely going to be greater than from a player like Parsons. 

How? You are getting a possible 2nd or 3rd Wr over the top LB with more impact at their position 

I'm all in on Parsons, you look back in Bengal playoff runs, we missed that dominant LB , never could rely on Burfict.. we habd top end Wrs in Chad and AJ and we 2 solid WRs now...go LB if we resign Jackson ..

(12-29-2020, 07:27 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Aaron Rodgers has had consistently good receivers. Between Jennings, Driver, Nelson, and Adams, he always had great targets out wide. I'm not making an argument for Chase, necessarily, I would like offensive line. Looking at Brady and his career consistency, he has usually had great offensive lines and that has been an enabler for Brady. Throw in the fact that he had Rob for nine seasons, who is arguably the most dominant TE in NFL history, he was able to make things work. I would love to give Burrow that kind of protection and give him all day to throw to Boyd and Tee because I think those two guys are really talented. I would love to give him a TE, but if we can get OL value for Burrow, I will take that all day.

I am simply saying that the value you are going to get from a player like Chase is likely going to be greater than from a player like Parsons. 

And Burrow has Boyd + Tee Higgins + Mixon we don't need another WR over a defensive star as it stands right now.  If Parsons is the next TJ Watt, Luke Kuechly, or Bobby Wagner then yeah he has the same value as Chase does. With that being said I would rather draft a elite pass rusher or  Elite Corner though over a elite LB though.


Hopefully the Bengals will trade down to get more picks because we have a lot of needs on offensive line and defense in particular. Or were  active in free agency so we can open up the board.

I'd be fine with Parsons over anyone but Penei. Would I rather have a corner, under tackle, or edge rusher at 6? Ideally, yes. Unfortunately. I don't really see a corner or DL worth taking at 5 or 6. I think Parsons is the biggest impact player on defense that's going to be available.

Our linebackers are better than they were when they were running Brown and Vigil out there, but are they so good that you'd pass on a player like Parsons? I think Wilson has a big future ahead of him. Pratt is one-dimensional (good in coverage), and ADG is obviously still adjusting to the league. Frankly, he's been a bit of a disappointment.

I'd be fairly excited about a defense that had Reader, Parsons/Wilson, and Bell/Bates solidifying the middle. That would be a tough group to run on, and the linebackers are athletic enough to (gasp) possibly even cover TEs.

I'm not ride or die with Parsons, but I think it would be a good decision.

(12-29-2020, 04:47 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think you can get bigger impact players at that slot. Parsons is incredibly talented, but who is going to have a bigger impact; Parsons, or Chase? With the league becoming more offense oriented, a top WR (or TE, for that matter) is likely going to move the needle more than a top LBer, especially given that we have our young QB of the future. It is attractive to add more talent around him, whether it be OL or weapons. 

I am not 100% opposed, I do want to say that. I just think you can get more impact out of another position.

This.

(12-29-2020, 05:59 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You do need a good defense, but I am going to place more value on a secondary player than a linebacker. The idea is if you give Burrow special weapons around him, when you believe he is a special QB, you have the potential to get special results. 

Agreed. People really need to stop with the Burrow doesn’t need much around him stuff. It’s just not true. How many TD’s did he throw to Tate? Or Erickson? Or Sample? Burrow had a stacked team at LSU. Especially on offense. If you want those kind of results, give all the weapons you can. I don’t want him to be just a pretty good QB. I want him to be an MVP and throw 50 TD’s.

(12-29-2020, 10:37 PM)samhain Wrote: I'd be fine with Parsons over anyone but Penei.  Would I rather have a corner, under tackle, or edge rusher at 6?  Ideally, yes.  Unfortunately. I don't really see a corner or DL worth taking at 5 or 6.  I think Parsons is the biggest impact player on defense that's going to be available.

Our linebackers are better than they were when they were running Brown and Vigil out there, but are they so good that you'd pass on a player like Parsons?  I think Wilson has a big future ahead of him.  Pratt is one-dimensional (good in coverage), and ADG is obviously still adjusting to the league.  Frankly, he's been a bit of a disappointment.  

I'd be fairly excited about a defense that had Reader, Parsons/Wilson, and Bell/Bates solidifying the middle.  That would be a tough group to run on, and the linebackers are athletic enough to (gasp) possibly even cover TEs.  

I'm not ride or die with Parsons, but I think it would be a good decision.

Agree when u look what we have at top end of LB and WR .. LB is a bigger need and then u think about what Cleveland and Baltimore did too us on the ground especially Browns the two best games of Burrow and lost both. We might win both with Parson
 

(12-29-2020, 11:34 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Agree when u look what we have at top end of LB and WR .. LB is a bigger need and then u think about what Cleveland and Baltimore did too us on the ground especially Browns the two best games of Burrow and lost both. We might win both with Parson
 

AFC North is typically won on the ground... sans Steelers this year. 

Having a stud LB to fill those gaps would be HUGE.  

None of the AFC North QB's outside of Burrow makes people fear them in the air.   Lets stop the run.

(12-29-2020, 07:09 PM)J24 Wrote: If he is a special QB he is going to get special results no matter who is around him. We don't need a third WR in the first RD to make that happen. Look at what Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady have done with their careers not elite supporting casts on offense.

GB has failed to give Rodgers another elite weapon since Adams. And they haven’t won a Super Bowl since they had Nelson and Driver. They felt taking a QB in the 1st round was more important than giving their HoF QB another WR while their window was still open. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Imagine Rodgers throwing to Higgins or Claypool...

Brady had Gronk and Moss in his best years. Yes they won Super Bowl’s without them, but having Bill Belichick certainly helps with that. And expecting any QB to do what Brady has done is some pretty immense expectations.

(12-29-2020, 11:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: GB has failed to give Rodgers another elite weapon since Adams. And they haven’t won a Super Bowl since they had Nelson and Driver. They felt taking a QB in the 1st round was more important than giving their HoF QB another WR while their window was still open. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Imagine Rodgers throwing to Higgins or Claypool...

Brady had Gronk and Moss in his best years. Yes they won Super Bowl’s without them, but having Bill Belichick certainly helps with that. And expecting any QB to do what Brady has done is some pretty immense expectations.

I'm not against getting weapons for Burrow, but I think the beauty of a quarterback like him is his ability to make do with good-not-great receivers.  He throws guys open, and he does it with the Mike Thomases and Auden Tates of the world.  It isn't fair to compare him to Brady, but their games are similar in terms of what makes them effective.  Neither made their name by being cannon-arm deep ball quarterbacks, although they aren't incapable of throwing deep.  They are excellent at "NFL throws". ie 10-15 yard passes in traffic, in the middle of the field.  Frankly, that's what I think is special about him.  His field vision and the way he goes through progressions, coupled with ball placement are what make defenses fear him, not his ability to smoke them deep.

Looking at Higgins and Boyd, I'm just not sure WR is a huge need anyway.  I'd try and get a speed guy in the middle rounds OR sign a guy in the 8 mil range in FA to round out the group.  Someone like Marvin Jones or Cooks if he's released.  

I love the idea of Chase here as much as anyone, but it just feels irresponsible and Mike Brown-ish at the end of the day.  He's the Ferrari when we need a F-250.  Burrow needs time and linemen to give it to him, not to mention keep him on the field.  He also needs a defense that can hold teams under 30 so he's not out there slinging it 60 times a game with the opposing team's front seven coming in hot for the entire second half.

(12-30-2020, 12:08 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm not against getting weapons for Burrow, but I think the beauty of a quarterback like him is his ability to make do with good-not-great receivers.  He throws guys open, and he does it with the Mike Thomases and Auden Tates of the world.  It isn't fair to compare him to Brady, but their games are similar in terms of what makes them effective.  Neither made their name by being cannon-arm deep ball quarterbacks, although they aren't incapable of throwing deep.  They are excellent at "NFL throws". ie 10-15 yard passes in traffic, in the middle of the field.  Frankly, that's what I think is special about him.  His field vision and the way he goes through progressions, coupled with ball placement are what make defenses fear him, not his ability to smoke them deep.

Looking at Higgins and Boyd, I'm just not sure WR is a huge need anyway.  I'd try and get a speed guy in the middle rounds OR sign a guy in the 8 mil range in FA to round out the group.  Someone like Marvin Jones or Cooks if he's released.  

I love the idea of Chase here as much as anyone, but it just feels irresponsible and Mike Brown-ish at the end of the day.  He's the Ferrari when we need a F-250.  Burrow needs time and linemen to give it to him, not to mention keep him on the field.  He also needs a defense that can hold teams under 30 so he's not out there slinging it 60 times a game with the opposing team's front seven coming in hot for the entire second half.

This

(12-29-2020, 11:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: GB has failed to give Rodgers another elite weapon since Adams. And they haven’t won a Super Bowl since they had Nelson and Driver. They felt taking a QB in the 1st round was more important than giving their HoF QB another WR while their window was still open. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Imagine Rodgers throwing to Higgins or Claypool...

Brady had Gronk and Moss in his best years. Yes they won Super Bowl’s without them, but having Bill Belichick certainly helps with that. And expecting any QB to do what Brady has done is some pretty immense expectations.

It's kinda of hard to argue with what GB is doing right now. They went to the NFC championship last season and their one win away from controlling home field for the entire playoffs. Also Aaron is having another MVP season,  they went and signed two defensive studs last off season, and drafted a premier CB in Alexander in 2018. So they clearly have invested in their defense.

Brady doesn't beat Manning without the defenses he had in the 2000s. Also he hasn't won a superbowl without a top 10 scoring defense. So yeah did Brady have a elite players around him on offense  but he also had is share of great defenses. Which we are know where close

Burrow has a pretty good supporting cast Jonah(LT), Tee(Wr), Boyd(slot), and Mixon(RB) who already are or  probably will be top 10 players at their positions.

The defense has one guy under contract for 2021 in Bates that is top 10 at his position right now. So investing in defense over offense at this time is the smart thing to do. Now if they were to resign Jackson, Lawson, and add a guy like Leonard Williams at DT then let's talk offense weapons during the draft but right now the focus should be on defense or offensive line. Not skilled positions.

(12-30-2020, 12:08 AM)samhain Wrote: I'm not against getting weapons for Burrow, but I think the beauty of a quarterback like him is his ability to make do with good-not-great receivers.  He throws guys open, and he does it with the Mike Thomases and Auden Tates of the world.  It isn't fair to compare him to Brady, but their games are similar in terms of what makes them effective.  Neither made their name by being cannon-arm deep ball quarterbacks, although they aren't incapable of throwing deep.  They are excellent at "NFL throws". ie 10-15 yard passes in traffic, in the middle of the field.  Frankly, that's what I think is special about him.  His field vision and the way he goes through progressions, coupled with ball placement are what make defenses fear him, not his ability to smoke them deep.

Looking at Higgins and Boyd, I'm just not sure WR is a huge need anyway.  I'd try and get a speed guy in the middle rounds OR sign a guy in the 8 mil range in FA to round out the group.  Someone like Marvin Jones or Cooks if he's released.  

I love the idea of Chase here as much as anyone, but it just feels irresponsible and Mike Brown-ish at the end of the day.  He's the Ferrari when we need a F-250.  Burrow needs time and linemen to give it to him, not to mention keep him on the field.  He also needs a defense that can hold teams under 30 so he's not out there slinging it 60 times a game with the opposing team's front seven coming in hot for the entire second half.

You can get your F-250 in other rounds and FA. Look, I won’t be mad if they feel like WR is not a big enough need to use a top 10 pick on, but I will be ecstatic if they do. Giving Burrow his favorite target from their historic season together would just be a dream scenario.

We should be addressing the OL heavily in FA anyway. Can’t keep waiting around for draft picks to develop. Especially with a QB coming off an injury.

(12-30-2020, 01:01 AM)J24 Wrote: It's kinda of hard to argue with what GB is doing right now. They went to the NFC championship last season and their one win away from controlling home field for the entire playoffs. Also Aaron is having another MVP season,  they went and signed two defensive studs last off season, and drafted a premier CB in Alexander in 2018. So they clearly have invested in their defense.

Brady doesn't beat Manning without the defenses he had in the 2000s. Also he hasn't won a superbowl without a top 10 scoring defense. So yeah did Brady have a elite players around him on offense  but he also had is share of great defenses. Which we are know where close

Burrow has a pretty good supporting cast Jonah(LT), Tee(Wr), Boyd(slot), and Mixon(RB) who already are or  probably will be top 10 players at their positions.

The defense has one guy under contract for 2021 in Bates that is top 10 at his position right now. So investing in defense over offense at this time is the smart thing to do. Now if they were to resign Jackson, Lawson, and add a guy like Leonard Williams at DT then let's talk offense weapons during the draft but right now the focus should be on defense or offensive line. Not skilled positions.

Reader is top 10 at his position. And they just spent a fortune on him, Waynes, and Bell this past offseason. The majority of our biggest free agency ever went towards defense.

(12-29-2020, 11:37 PM)QueenCity Wrote: AFC North is typically won on the ground... sans Steelers this year. 

Having a stud LB to fill those gaps would be HUGE.  

None of the AFC North QB's outside of Burrow makes people fear them in the air.   Lets stop the run.

Isn’t that exactly what we just focused on bringing in Reader, Bell, and Waynes?

(12-30-2020, 01:16 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Reader is top 10 at his position. And they just spent a fortune on him, Waynes, and Bell this past offseason. The majority of our biggest free agency ever went towards defense.

Reader- he has only one good season in his career the rest have been meh. 
Wayne's- overrated for his contract and isn't a #1 
Bell- I like him as a player but he isn't a game changer. 
We still need multiple pass rushers and a number 1 CB next season.