(03-09-2021, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone who judges individual players based on team stats does not know much about football.

Guess we can't sign Brandon Scherff to play OG for us because Washington had the #30 ranked offense with him starting for them.

You mean the 4x Pro Bowler coming off a 1st Team All-Pro? That is the type of player you franchise tag, not an accolade-less 5.5 sack DE.

(03-09-2021, 05:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You mean the 4x Pro Bowler coming off a 1st Team All-Pro? That is the type of player you franchise tag, not an accolade-less 5.5 sack DE.

I mean the starter on the 30th ranked offense.

According to the logic some people use around here team stats is what you use to judge the value of  individual players.

Bengals didn't tag anyone. And I'm fine with that. Still hope to keep both WJIII and Lawson, but there will be replacement options and no need to pay them like all pro's/probowlers.

There making the same mistake they made with Whitworth in 2017 & Joseph 2011. They are incapable of learning from past mistakes. Mistakes that I mind you should not have been made in the first place.
The front office is not going to sign any major free agents and their going to draft a CB in the first and an edge in the second Rd this year. It's groundhog day once again in Cincinnati.
Well at least we will have a ton of comp picks to look forward in the 2022 draft.

The Bengals would like to bring Carl Lawson back at a price that both sides are comfortable with. #Bengals

— Tyler Dragon (@TheTylerDragon) March 9, 2021

 

(03-09-2021, 06:19 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

The Bengals would like to bring Carl Lawson back at a price that both sides are comfortable with. #Bengals

— Tyler Dragon (@TheTylerDragon) March 9, 2021

 

Translation he gone

Translation we aren't paying 14million for 5.5 sacks, when there will be DE's averaging 8+ for far less.

And I don't want to hear about him hurrying QB's as they light up the Defense pass after pass (as we've seen the last 3 years).

If we are honest, Lawson disappears far more than he appears. Not worth 14m.

(03-09-2021, 06:24 PM)jj22 Wrote: Transition we aren't paying 14million for 5.5 sacks, when there will be DE's averaging 8+ for far less.

And I don't want to hear about him hurrying QB's as they light up the Defense.

For the billionth Time Sacks are an outdated way to judge pass rushers. 
Carl Lawson was top 10 in pressures last season, top 10 in sacks created per ESPN, 2nd in QB hits, and is the second rated edge in this free agency according to PFF. 
Carl Lawson was easily worth the franchise tag.

(03-09-2021, 06:29 PM)J24 Wrote: For the billionth Time Sacks are an outdated way to judge pass rushers. 
Carl Lawson was top 10 in pressures last season, top 10 in sacks created per ESPN, 2nd in QB hits, and is the second rated edge in this free agency according to PFF. 
Carl Lawson was easily worth the franchise tag.

How many completions came on those pressures? That's what people don't look at. But we watch, and we've seen that QB's still complete the pass for chunk yards and TD's. 

So he forces them to hit us with chunk plays on route to their 125 passer rating in 2.5 seconds instead of 3. Ok. 

(03-09-2021, 06:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: How many completions came on those pressures? That's what people don't look at. But we watch, and we've seen that QB's still complete the pass for chunk yards and TD's. 

So he forces them to hit us with chunk plays in 2.5 seconds instead of 3. Ok. 

Do you have any stats to back that up?

Well I mean if you want me to show the beating our pass D has taken the last 3 years. But why? You've seen it just like we all have.

Paying 14m for Lawson or any DE's to apply pressure just to have the QB complete the pass on route to wins, yardage, and 100+ passer ratings quicker than they would have without pressure is no way to build a team.

Only players who don't 'get sacks use pressure to try to convince people sacks aren't everything.

Pressure isn't everything when the QB still lights up the Defense.

(03-09-2021, 06:24 PM)jj22 Wrote: Translation we aren't paying 14million for 5.5 sacks, when there will be DE's averaging 8+ for far less.

And I don't want to hear about him hurrying QB's as they light up the Defense pass after pass (as we've seen the last 3 years).

If we are honest, Lawson disappears far more than he appears. Not worth 14m.

Since you know all about how to value Lawson how much will he get in free agency?

Reminds me of LB's who hang their hat on racking up tackles but after further review the tackles came 10 yards downfield after the rb has picked up 10 yards.

(03-09-2021, 06:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: How many completions came on those pressures? That's what people don't look at. But we watch, and we've seen that QB's still complete the pass for chunk yards and TD's. 

So he forces them to hit us with chunk plays on route to their 125 passer rating in 2.5 seconds instead of 3. Ok. 

(03-09-2021, 06:35 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I mean if you want me to show the beating our pass D has taken the last 3 years. But why? You've seen it just like we all have.

People who use team stats to judge individuals don't understand much about football.

I wonder what JJ22 thinks about OG Brandon Scherff since the Washington offense was horrid (30th) with him starting every game for them.

(03-09-2021, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since you know all about how to value Lawson how much will he get in free agency?

I'd say they are smart to let someone else overpay him if it is more than 8-10m a year. 

What do you think he's worth?

(03-09-2021, 06:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who use team stats to judge individuals don't understand much about football.

I wonder what JJ22 thinks about OG Brandon Scherff since the Washington offense was horrid (30th) with him starting every game for them.

I wouldn't pay a guard that kind of money no. I know the Bengals take it to the extreme at times, but if I was running a team, I wouldn't pay 16m for a guard. 

I think with the cut options, we can get good guard play for less than 16m. I mean, even the replacements last year looked decent once they got settled in towards the end of the year, and neither made little more than 4m. Do we need to pay 16m? How much different is a 16m guard from a 8million guard? Especially if the offense was improving (run and pass game), with 4m a year guards.

But to your point, at least Scherff was/is a all pro/probowler, which I know can be a popularity contest, however it is something you can point to when demanding all pro/probowl pay. 

(03-09-2021, 06:29 PM)J24 Wrote: Carl Lawson was easily worth the franchise tag.

Not a chance.  There's no way Carl Lawson is worth anywhere near the franchise tag, much less "easily worth" that amount.

You don't franchise guys that had 1 good but not great year, with 14 career starts, and who missed 13 of the 32 games the two years prior. Not especially when they're coming off 5.5 sacks.

You can mock the sacks total all you like, but that's what drives the market more than anything else for edge rushers.  No one is saying pressures and QB hits are meaningless, but you won't find too many DE's with sub 10 sacks inking 17 million dollar deals the following seasons.

Fwiw, spotrac has Lawson's market value at 8.8 mil per, projected out at a 3 year 30.3 million dollar deal.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/carl-lawson-21858/market-value/

I wouldn't pretend this site is dead accurate, because no one can set the values other than the teams spending the money.  But they're usually in the right ballpark when it comes to these.  They may be a little low on this one, because his price will go up in weaker FA class for his position.   But it won't go up all that much.

I'll personally be really surprised if Lawson sees north of 12 mil per. (I think that number lies in 8-12 range)  And I'll eat my hat, take a video of me doing it and post it on here, if he see 16+ mil.

(03-09-2021, 06:35 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I mean if you want me to show the beating our pass D has taken the last 3 years. But why? You've seen it just like we all have.

Paying 14m for Lawson or any DE's to apply pressure just to have the QB complete the pass on route to wins, yardage, and 100+ passer ratings quicker than they would have without pressure is no way to build a team.

Only players who don't 'get sacks use pressure to try to convince people sacks aren't everything.

Pressure isn't everything when the QB still lights up the Defense.

So Lawson should get punished for others not doing their job? Wow great argument Einstein!

(03-09-2021, 06:41 PM)jj22 Wrote: Reminds me of LB's who hang their hat on racking up tackles but after further review the tackles came 10 yards downfield after the rb has picked up 10 yards.

 Then you are pretty clueless about pressure stats.

There are endless amounts of stats that show that pressure effects the efficiency of every QB in the league.

Last year the Bengals pass efficiency defense ranked 22nd in the league.  The pass offense with Burrow under center full time ranked 24th. 

(03-09-2021, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since you know all about how to value Lawson how much will he get in free agency?

Not 17 million per, I can tell you that.