More Schein Love

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-01-2021, 01:08 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Yes, Tomlin really coached circles against a Ryan Finley-led team that had a net of 78 pass yards.

See, this is where the Taylor hate gets completely hyperbolic; the guy has a putrid record and there have been a fair share of questionable calls and decisions made, but HE bent Tomlin over and showed him the 50 states, in his coaching that night. Give credit where credit is due.

"Blind Squirrel," or not, that was a better-coached game and a half.

I sure hope to continue this, build off that game Zac. It was impressive to say the least. ***** slapped the Steelers that game.

Was really fun to watch.

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 01:26 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: it's really not that rare in recent times. 2012 Ravens, 2015 Broncos, 2017 Eagles. This is all relatively recent

But I would like to hear your opinion on 2 current quarterbacks

Kirk Cosuins and Matt Ryan. What are your thoughts on these guys?

I don't watch enough Atlanta or Minnesota games to know the intricacies of their capability at QB. I know that Cousins is statistically impressive, but the Minnesota fans seem to want to replace him all the time, even Justin Jefferson making a reference to replacing him in an interview.

Ryan seems like the kind of QB that can lead a franchise to the promised land (as he almost did), but is getting older.

I'd have to watch more of their games to know how clutch, composed and overall "elite" they truly are. I can't help but feel like there must be something in Cousins' tape that would lead so many to question his status as an elite QB considering his statistical prowess.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 02:39 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't watch enough Atlanta or Minnesota games to know the intricacies of their capability at QB. I know that Cousins is statistically impressive, but the Minnesota fans seem to want to replace him all the time, even Justin Jefferson making a reference to replacing him in an interview.

Ryan seems like the kind of QB that can lead a franchise to the promised land (as he almost did), but is getting older.

I'd have to watch more of their games to know how clutch, composed and overall "elite" they truly are. I can't help but feel like there must be something in Cousins' tape that would lead so many to question his status as an elite QB considering his statistical prowess.

 the hate for him comes from his primetime and playoff performances

but look how he does in a 16 game regular season, and you realize the people calling for Cousins to be replaced are insane people who rely too much on media narratives

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 02:49 PM)Frank Booth Wrote:  the hate for him comes from his primetime and playoff performances

but look how he does in a 16 game regular season, and you realize the people calling for Cousins to be replaced are insane people who rely too much on media narratives

But Minnesota's fans agree and, to your point, the team's fans watch all 16 games, not just prime time games. So why do they also want to replace him? Wouldn't they "see through the media narrative" if that's all that it was?

Maybe Cousins' problem was the same as Dalton's in that he was fine if you averaged his stats over a 16 game season but he was so bad in prime time and playoff games that the fans knew they couldn't reach the super bowl with him?

Clutch is a real thing that can't be quantifiably measured and Dalton didn't have it, nor does Cousins, if you believe the Minnesota fans.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 02:52 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: But Minnesota's fans agree and, to your point, the team's fans watch all 16 games, not just prime time games. So why do they also want to replace him? Wouldn't they "see through the media narrative" if that's all that it was?

Maybe Cousins' problem was the same as Dalton's in that he was fine if you averaged his stats over a 16 game season but he was so bad in prime time and playoff games that the fans knew they couldn't reach the super bowl with him?

Clutch is a real thing that can't be quantifiably measured and Dalton didn't have it, nor does Cousins, if you believe the Minnesota fans.

a lot of fans are just people who repeat what these sports media outlets spew

The fact that there are Atlanta fans who want Matt Ryan gone, and people who believe Matt Ryan and even a guy like Phillip Rivers arent hall of famers, just proves the point

Basically, most fans are dumb

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2021, 02:52 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: But Minnesota's fans agree and, to your point, the team's fans watch all 16 games, not just prime time games. So why do they also want to replace him? Wouldn't they "see through the media narrative" if that's all that it was?

Actually I'll bet that if we went to the Vikings fan site or social media there would be a raging debate among the fans over Cousins.

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 01:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except you never see half of the NFL turnover at QB every year.  The top 20-25 usually stand pat.  QBs are too expensive to try to acquire a new one every other year.  People like to point to Mahommes or what the Packer did with Rodgers and Love, but those are rare exceptions to the general rule in the NFL.

Well, that's why I said "ideally." Not every franchise is going to have an opportunity to replace their QB every year, even if they need to. Whether it's bad contracts holding their starter in place, lack of draft capital, a bad team that can't attract one of the rare free agent QBs worth sgning etc. But there are teams that don't replace their QB each year that would have loved to, if they were given the opportunity.

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 03:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I'll bet that if we went to the Vikings fan site or social media there would be a raging debate among the fans over Cousins.

Exactly. There are Vikings fans that likely want to replace Cousins despite watching all 16 games each year. So the "media only wants to replace this QB because they don't bother watching them play outside of prime time games" narrative is incorrect on its face.

[*rfaulk34*]

June 1st, 2021

*Andy Dalton debate breaks out on the Bengals MB.


LULZ

[CJD]

(06-01-2021, 02:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: a lot of fans are just people who repeat what these sports media outlets spew

The fact that there are Atlanta fans who want Matt Ryan gone, and people who believe Matt Ryan and even a guy like Phillip Rivers arent hall of famers, just proves the point

Basically, most fans are dumb

So what you're saying is that your theory is self perpetuating.. 

1. The call for (insert controversial QB) to be replaced is generated by the media that only bother watching prime time games. Therefore, this narrative is built on incomplete information and is not valid.
2. The fans of the team see through this narrative because they watch all 16 games.
3. The reason some fans who watch all 16 games still believe the aforementioned narrative is because they're dumb.

Using your three step theory, you can invalidate, literally, any opinion that you disagree with.

Which makes discussing anything with someone who believes your theory completely pointless.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-01-2021, 02:39 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't watch enough Atlanta or Minnesota games to know the intricacies of their capability at QB. I know that Cousins is statistically impressive, but the Minnesota fans seem to want to replace him all the time, even Justin Jefferson making a reference to replacing him in an interview.

Ryan seems like the kind of QB that can lead a franchise to the promised land (as he almost did), but is getting older.

I'd have to watch more of their games to know how clutch, composed and overall "elite" they truly are. I can't help but feel like there must be something in Cousins' tape that would lead so many to question his status as an elite QB considering his statistical prowess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUIwBMVHcRI&form=MY01SV&OCID=MY01SV

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 03:58 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: So what you're saying is that your theory is self perpetuating.. 

1. The call for (insert controversial QB) to be replaced is generated by the media that only bother watching prime time games. Therefore, this narrative is built on incomplete information and is not valid.
2. The fans of the team see through this narrative because they watch all 16 games.
3. The reason some fans who watch all 16 games still believe the aforementioned narrative is because they're dumb.

Using your three step theory, you can invalidate, literally, any opinion that you disagree with.

Which makes discussing anything with someone who believes your theory completely pointless.

1. Most of the time, yea, incomplete information. These media outlets never give you the full story, especially with unpopular teams. It's mainly just headline type of stuff with no actual substance. That's how you get people saying Kirk Cousins is trash.

2. The smart ones who dont rely on nfl network, fs1, and espn, and know about other players on other teams, yes.

3. Yes.

there are dumb fans and smart fans. 

[Shake n Blake]

(06-01-2021, 12:20 AM)sandwedge Wrote: Honest question here Shake, how good do you think Mahomes would have been here with the O-line we've had the last few years? He looked pretty average in the SB with the constant pressure he was getting.

Certainly not as good as he's been in KC, but probably better than late career Andy Dalton.

(06-01-2021, 09:23 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: 1. I'm glad you brought up Mahomes, because you're ignoring the most obvious way to replace a "good not great" QB without throwing late first round picks at it or signing free agents. From 2014 to 2017, they consistently had mid to late first round picks because of their mid tier/acceptable/maybe top 15 QB Alex Smith but chose to trade up to get their potential franchise guy. Then, obviously, there were the project QBs that had high potential but fell because people weren't certain how they'd pan out, like Lamar Jackson. I remember Mo Egger pounding the table hard for him in 2018. If you traded up or took a Jackson and it didn't work out, fine. But we didn't even attempt to upgrade the most important position in the NFL (and possibly all of sports).

2. Having an above average season and being an above average QB are not the same thing. Dalton had one really good year, a few slightly above average years, a good number of average years and a few bad years. If you get an A, 2 Bs, 3 Cs and 2 Ds, your final grade is going to be around a C, maybe a C+. Having that A and 2 Bs does not make you a B student.


You can compare two players without them being considered exactly the same. Dalton has had a better career overall than Fitz because he was given a lot of opportunities to start whereas Fitz has been playing from behind for a lot of his career and has switched teams and schemes for years now looking for that opportunity to start. 

That doesn't mean him and Dalton can't be similar in ideal role. They are both good enough to win games with the right team around them but not good enough to rest an entire franchise's future on their shoulders, despite their insistence that they are. 

Since Dalton left Cincinnati, he has gone on to back up Dak in Dallas (and did pretty decent in that role when called upon) and now he's in Chicago and while they said he would be the starter, they then immediately drafted Justin Fields. Maybe the Bears didn't think they'd be in range of a new starting QB in the draft this year so they decided to wait until 2022 to try and address the QB position so they signed Dalton just to have a game manager who, if the defense is elite, could sneak them into the playoffs. Or maybe they always planned to draft a QB and just told Dalton he was the starter so he would sign (Which would be a pretty big dick move, to be honest), but my point is since Dalton left Cincinnati, he has never been considered a franchise QB.

I just would have preferred the Bengals had treated him like every other franchise seems to want to treat him (and the way teams also treat Fitzpatrick). A good bridge QB for a young QB or a great back up QB who can win games and help in a pinch but won't be relied upon to be the unquestioned starter for years at a time.

EDIT: Also, as a side note, we were talking about QB rating and how it's a subjective measure and is it really a good way to grade QBs. You asked me what metric would I prefer and, while I don't think it's perfect and it appears to be a confidential formula (much like PFF's grades, which I would have checked for Dalton if I had the subscription), I do think it is worth pointing out that ESPN's QBR is much less charitable to Andy Dalton. Below are his QBR ranks and his QB Rating ranks by year:

2011:
QBR: 20th QB Rating: 20th
2012:
QBR: 21st QB Rating: 13th
2013:
QBR: 17th QB Rating: 15th
2014:
QBR: 22nd QB Rating: 25th
2015:
QBR: 3rd QB Rating: 2nd
2016:
QBR: 20th QB Rating: 15th
2017:
QBR: 25th QB Rating: 18th
2018:
QBR: 15th QB Rating: 26th
2019:
QBR: 27th QB Rating: 32th

So that rating system supports my "average or worse" sentiment pretty well, with the exception of 2015.

1. The Bengals very rarely trade up. We have to deal with the parameters we're given.

2. You're looking at it all wrong, brother. Dalton from 2012-2016 was consistently above average. One great season, a couple others that were objectively very good. 15th and 13th in passer rating, but accounted for 31 and 35 TDs. Set franchise records in yardage and TDs. Made the Pro Bowl.

You can't look at a 5 year stretch like that and say he was an average to below average QB who was just consistently outperforming his true skill level.

---------

Fitz and Dalton "are both good enough to win with the right players around them" - yet Fitz has never made the playoffs, and (IIRC) only has one winning season, in a career that exceeds Dalton by several years.

Regardless of how you try to spin spin spin, this is a dumb comparison. At some point you have to accept the fact that Dalton started so many games because he won so many games, and Fitz bounced around so much because he was (IIRC) a 7th round inferior prospect who has generally accounted for a ton of turnovers (INTs and fumbles).

He's not Andy Dalton, bro.

As far as what's happened since Dalton left, he's obviously older. The last few years removed some shine from his name, and he's never been considered an elite top guy in the first place. So of course he's settled into this type of role. That doesnt mean nobody would've viewed him as a long term starter at 25 years old. To suggest as much is ridiculous.

To the last bit, I dont use QBR, nor do many on here take it seriously.

[Frank Booth]

Dalton averages(and totals) from 2012-2018

[attachment=1206]

Stafford averages(and totals) from 2012-2018

   

Luck averages(and totals) from 2012-2018


   

Obvious takeaway is that Luck and Stafford had much much more pass attempts and yards than Dalton. Other than that, everything else is pretty similar

Stafford and Dalton both had a 25.5 touchdowns to 13.5 interception rate.

all qb ratings are similar, but Dalton edges them both out

all int% are similar, but Dalton did have the highest of the 3

Dalton had the 2nd highest td% of the 3

So to compare Dalton to Fitzpatrick is going a bit overboard

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-01-2021, 03:56 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: June 1st, 2021

*Andy Dalton debate breaks out on the Bengals MB.


LULZ

I’m giving this one the old Grandpa sees Bart in the brothel treatment lol.

[Bengalholic]

(06-01-2021, 03:56 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: June 1st, 2021

*Andy Dalton debate breaks out on the Bengals MB.


LULZ

Yep. Me wondering into this thread and then realizing what it was:

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-01-2021, 05:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m giving this one the old Grandpa sees Bart in the brothel treatment lol.

It's a Burlesque House, not a brothel!

[Shake n Blake]

(06-01-2021, 05:20 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m giving this one the old Grandpa sees Bart in the brothel treatment lol.

Can't say I blame ya, but after 3 months of Chase/Sewell debate, re-heating old Dalton talk tastes like warmed up Skyline coneys.

And it's not like we have much to talk about right now. It's the famous "dead zone" time of year.

After the draft but before training camp.

[Frank Booth]

(06-01-2021, 07:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Can't say I blame ya, but after 3 months of Chase/Sewell debate, re-heating old Dalton talk tastes like warmed up Skyline coneys.

And it's not like we have much to talk about right now. It's the famous "dead zone" time of year.

After the draft but before training camp.

nah apparently we should just keep talking about Burrow, and everything that happened in the past should be done with.

boy, do I feel stupid

so, Joe Burrow got new teeth huh?

[SadFaceBengal15]

(05-28-2021, 04:56 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I just hope we beat the Stealers twice this season. I think we can. I worry more about Cleveland and Baltimore than I do the Stealers. Hoping they finish last in the AFCN.

Harris is gonna cause a lot of problems for us in Pittsburgh