Joe Burrow's stats from last year...

[*Nately120*]

(08-04-2021, 10:48 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Idek what to make of ZT. He comes from the mcvay tree, and wants to implement that offense here.

Thing is, those Mcvay teams have good lines and are able to run it down people’s faces.

Zac can’t get that going here with this o-line personnel.

I don’t think zac can progress properly with a hamstrung offense.

I think of young or first time head coaches like young qb’s

like how some qb’s never develop properly due to bad o-lines (David carr for example)

I get the disdain for him though. I guess

I know that shit happens, but lordy...the fact that ZT started off his career here by going 0-11 and immediately breaking our franchise losing streak record was hardly starting things off on the right foot.

The guy came into a franchise with a fan base that had just sat through three boring ass 6/7/6-win years with Marvin at the helm.  We were ready to celebrate if ZT could find his ass with both hands and so far he hasn't shown that he can.  Granted, his first two years were bad for different reasons, but they were really really bad.  I just don't feel like going into 2022 saying that 2021 didn't count because Burrow wasn't 100% and ZT is totally going to figure it out in 2022, just you watch.

[Frank Booth]

(08-04-2021, 10:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: funny that you want to blame the coach but not the QB that never played in the NFL either.. rarely is is one only and not both.. and with  a QB that has no track record in the NFL, I find it hard to totally blame the coach.. 

Here we go

Essex getting ready to hop on the “Burrow really isn’t that good” train

Choo choo!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2021, 10:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I know that shit happens, but lordy...the fact that ZT started off his career here by going 0-11 and immediately breaking our franchise losing streak record was hardly starting things off on the right foot.

The guy came into a franchise with a fan base that had just sat through three boring ass 6/7/6-win years with Marvin at the helm.  We were ready to celebrate if ZT could find his ass with both hands and so far he hasn't shown that he can.  Granted, his first two years were bad for different reasons, but they were really really bad.  I just don't feel like going into 2022 saying that 2021 didn't count because Burrow wasn't 100% and ZT is totally going to figure it out in 2022, just you watch.

This NEEDS to be Zac's make or break year. He has his team now. I am going to give him a chance this year, we will see.

We cannot waste Joe Burrow or this roster's careers, that is all.

Still stand by the roster was shit when ZT got here especially the trenches on both sides of the ball. I think we are better now here.

Now we can judge fairly.

[Frank Booth]

(08-04-2021, 11:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This NEEDS to be Zac's make or break year. He has his team now. I am going to give him a chance this year, we will see.

We cannot waste Joe Burrow or this roster's careers, that is all.

Still stand by the roster was shit when ZT got here especially the trenches on both sides of the ball. I think we are better now here.

Now we can judge fairly.

Eh

He’s still working with an overall bad roster.

Andy Reid would struggle with this o-line

I really wish I could say if Taylor is good or bad, but I don’t even know.

[*Nately120*]

(08-04-2021, 10:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: funny that you want to blame the coach but not the QB that never played in the NFL either.. rarely is is one only and not both.. and with  a QB that has no track record in the NFL, I find it hard to totally blame the coach.. 

Even if Burrow is a bust ZT still managed to go 2-14 with a QB and team that Marvin "I also can't believe I'm still here" Lewis could get 6+ wins out of.  ZT was setting Bengals records for losing when Joe Burrow was still an unknown late-round prospect.  

Even if Burrow falls flat on his face in 2021, ZT still has a 1 year heard start of sucking on him, so it's going to be hard to NOT blame it on ZT.  Plus, if he flames out here his odds of getting a job as a HC elsewhere are Dave Shula-levels of nonexistent.  But I'll leave the option open that the planets align this year and ZT gets it all together.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2021, 11:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Even if Burrow is a bust ZT still managed to go 2-14 with a QB and team that Marvin "I also can't believe I'm still here" Lewis could get 6+ wins out of.  ZT was setting Bengals records for losing when Joe Burrow was still an unknown late-round prospect.  

Even if Burrow falls flat on his face in 2021, ZT still has a 1 year heard start of sucking on him, so it's going to be hard to NOT blame it on ZT.  Plus, if he flames out here his odds of getting a job as a HC elsewhere are Dave Shula-levels of nonexistent.  But I'll leave the option open that the planets align this year and ZT gets it all together.

So it's ok to suck 2 years Burrow but not 3 ZT ..lol

[*Nately120*]

(08-04-2021, 11:05 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: I really wish I could say if Taylor is good or bad, but I don’t even know.

He has the lowest winning percentage as a HC in the past 80 years of football.  Everyone is subject to bad luck and hard times, but if bad luck and a difficult situation makes you the worst at something your odds of being good at that thing are pretty low.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

I’m not worried at all about Joe Burrow’s statistics from 2020. It’s not even a blip on my radar screen. With the horrible offensive line, awful play calling, and a stupid level of pass heavy offense — and let’s not forget Joe’s season was cut short by injury — 2020 was a statistical outlier. Trying to make inferences from Joe Burrow’s 2020 performance can’t be done with any accuracy.

To paraphrase Bill Belichick, “I’m on to 2021.”

Year Two for Joe Burrow will be crucial. Unfortunately he’s still rehabbing from last season and today Tyler Boyd said Joe is definitely not 100%. That’s okay. The truth is powerful.

With Joe’s repaired knee he is going to be even less mobile than before which puts even more pressure on the offensive line. Either he gets the ball out faster on quick slants or he’s going to turn into a crash test dummy. I don’t want this to happen to Joe in particular nor to the Bengals in general because he was drafted to pass downfield — albeit not 50+ attempts per game.

Either way, Cincinnati is going to have to run the ball more and do so effectively. Once again it comes down to the offensive linemen who have underwhelmed at run blocking since 2016.

[*Nately120*]

(08-04-2021, 11:08 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So it's ok to suck 2 years Burrow but not 3 ZT ..lol

Yes, sort of.  We've seen ZT come in last place without Burrow, so until Burrow comes in last place without ZT, ZT will always be in the lead of the "race to suck" so to speak.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2021, 11:05 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Eh

He’s still working with an overall bad roster.

Andy Reid would struggle with this o-line

I really wish I could say if Taylor is good or bad, but I don’t even know.

Well that's your opinion Frank, I think the trenches are much better than they were the last couple years and now is the time to
know whether Taylor is good or bad. We should know now, this season on if he can coach a team with better inside out play.

I think we have good weapons and a good to very good Secondary. If the trenches can hold up we could be good with decent
coaching. Make or break year for Zac Taylor, don't give him any excuses.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-04-2021, 11:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, sort of.  We've seen ZT come in last place without Burrow, so until Burrow comes in last place without ZT, ZT will always be in the lead of the "race to suck" so to speak.

When you the 1 consensus pick you also are expected to raise the bar. So Burrow should share blame, Dalton 2nd round pick took over a bad team left behind by Palmer with Lewis still as coach and went on a 5 yr playoff run, you blame both HC and QB

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(08-04-2021, 11:22 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: When you the 1 consensus pick you also are expected to raise the bar. So Burrow should share blame, Dalton 2nd round pick took over a bad team left behind by Palmer with Lewis still as coach and went on a 5 yr playoff run, you blame both HC and QB

There is plenty of blame to go around; that’s for sure. It takes an entire roster to stink up the Western Hemisphere like the Bengals have done over the past two seasons. No one or even two people can create such an abysmal stinking dung heap of despair. It truly takes a village to lose that many games.

I understand your points perfectly but the Joe Burrow vs. Andy Dalton debate isn’t the main event. It’s not even worthy of undercard status to use a boxing analogy.

The big debate, I believe, is Zac Taylor vs. Marvin Lewis. While Marvin might have underachieved, Zac actually needs to improve to be considered an underachiever. He’s that bad. Zac won two games with Andy Dalton and two games with Joe Burrow and that tells me everything I need to know.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2021, 11:41 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: There is plenty of blame to go around; that’s for sure.  It takes an entire roster to stink up the Western Hemisphere like the Bengals have done over the past two seasons.  No one or even two people can create such an abysmal stinking dung heap of despair.  It truly takes a village to lose that many games.

I understand your points perfectly but the Joe Burrow vs. Andy Dalton debate isn’t the main event. It’s not even worthy of undercard status to use a boxing analogy.

The big debate, I believe, is Zac Taylor vs. Marvin Lewis.  While Marvin might have underachieved, Zac actually needs to improve to be considered an underachiever.  He’s that bad.  Zac won two games with Andy Dalton and two games with Joe Burrow and that tells me everything I need to know.

Yes and we need to win at least 10 games this year for me to even consider bringing Zac back. Coaching, the trenches and injuries 
have held this team back the last couple of years. We will see how it goes but I want a new HC regardless if we cannot start winning 
more than half our games.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-04-2021, 10:56 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Here we go

Essex getting ready to hop on the “Burrow really isn’t that good” train

Choo choo!

He doesn't need to jump on. He's the engineer. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-04-2021, 02:06 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Joe was 24th in average passer rating 89.8. This is right above Dalton. Guys ahead of him include Phillip Rivers, Kirk Cousins, and Baker Mayfield.

Joe was 21st in completion percentage.

Joe threw the ball a ton last year (40 times a game). This would have been second in the league behind the Steelers and he only had more than 300 yards passing 5 times.

This was my first time really looking at his stats from last year. I know his offensive line was dog shit and he was a rookie last year, but man I was expecting his numbers to be better than that.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, but I'm just lowering my expectations of what to expect from him this year after reading those stats, hearing about how he looks in camp so far, and especially early on coming back from injury.

What are your guys' thoughts on his numbers from last year?

Not just cherry-picking your data here, but you do realize he only finished 9 games and had 200+ yards at the half against Washington? 

I get that the numbers weren't earth-shattering, but consider these other points:

His #1 WR was AJ Green and was being rated at or near the bottom of all starting WRs by PFF.  AJ just fell off a cliff.

His #1 RB was only available for half of his starts.

His offensive line lost one starter in the offseason to medical retirement and was replaced by Mike Jordan and lost the other guard in week 1 of the season, to be replaced by a revolving door of revolving doors.

John Ross started the first two games of the season before Higgins got a shot.  Higgins, as a rookie, ends up his #1 outside threat.

Jim Turner....'nuff said.  

Competition from his first start with no preseason?  Let's examine that:

Week 1- Chargers.  Very stout defense.  Elite pass rusher.
Week 2- Browns.  Very good front.  Elite pass rusher.
Week 3- Philly.  Very stout defense.  One of the best fronts in the league. 
Week 4- Jax.  They suck, and he took advantage.
Week 5- Baltimore.  Very tough defense.  Close to tops in the league
Week 6- Indy.  Ranked #1 defense at the time of the game.  Played well.
Week 7- Cleveland again
Week 8- Tennessee.  Not a good defense, but a playoff team.  Handled them.  
Week 9- Pitt.  #1 defense in the league at the time of the game
Week 10- Washington. Very tough defense.  Elite front four.  Had 200 yards passing at the half. 

It wasn't like Burrow got to come in to the league and face pathetic Buffalo, Miami, and NYJ teams like Brady did for so many years.  That was a gauntlet, and it won't get any easier.   

The past is the past, but it made him what he is today, and I can't wait to see what he does in year 2.  

[motoarch]

I can't believe we're comparing Dalton and Burrow.

I was a Dalton supporter. Not because he was great but because he was good enough with a really good supporting cast. Take that away and he was just serviceable, smart and wasn't going to make too many mistakes.

He wasn't great.

I don't care what the stats say between the 2 and how many games Dalton won and how many times he made it to the playoffs. He never looked 'special'.

Burrow is special and anyone that watched him play knows it.

No he didn't win many games but it sure as hell wasn't his fault. He carried the team on his back and balled hard than anyone on the field and his cast let him down over and over.

He tried to will his way to a win week after week and it felt like the rest of the team was just watching rather than participating sometimes. It never felt that way with Dalton. He never seemed like his game elevated above the play around him, he's was just there.

I hope that changes this year.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-05-2021, 08:04 PM)motoarch Wrote: I can't believe we're comparing Dalton and Burrow.

I was a Dalton supporter.  Not because he was great but because he was good enough with a really good supporting cast.  Take that away and he was just serviceable, smart and wasn't going to make too many mistakes.

He wasn't great.

I don't care what the stats say between the 2 and how many games Dalton won and how many times he made it to the playoffs.  He never looked 'special'.

Burrow is special and anyone that watched him play knows it.

No he didn't win many games but it sure as hell wasn't his fault.  He carried the team on his back and balled hard than anyone on the field and his cast let him down over and over.

He tried to will his way to a win week after week and it felt like the rest of the team was just watching rather than participating sometimes.  It never felt that way with Dalton.  He never seemed like his game elevated above the play around him, he's was just there.

I hope that changes this year.

Completely agree, they are not even comparable.

[impactplaya]

When you combine a young QB with only 10 career starts and HC scheming up a offense
With that no.resume of success as a OC, thats a recipie for failure eventually
Zac Taylor is such a dumb cluck he has to steal another mans offensive blueprints
And 3 years in it still has its issues.
All ZT knows how to.do treat this offense like its 7 on 7 mens flag league.
But he has no resume of developing a QB or designing a offense that has been
Ahead of the curve
Burrows stats last year is a reflection of ZTs ignorance and arrogance as a X and Os designer

[fredtoast]

(08-05-2021, 08:04 PM)motoarch Wrote: I was a Dalton supporter.  Not because he was great but because he was good enough with a really good supporting cast.  Take that away and he was just serviceable,

What has Burrow done without an elite supporting cast?

[Wes Mantooth]

I think he had a pretty strong rookie season. If you look at only his stats I can see maybe being a little underwhelmed but there's plenty to be encouraged about.

His completion percentage for a rookie, and especially for what he was faced with, was really strong at 65%. That came playing behind a terrible OL and having to fit balls into a lot of tight windows where his receivers were often blanketed. He made a number of really tough throws. And even better news is he didn't turn the ball over a ton trying to squeeze balls into coverage.

I think where is rating suffers the most is lack of TD's. Obviously he's partly to blame for that but I also think Taylor is as well. I mean, let's be honest, Taylor has been a terrible play caller in the Red Zone. And that's occured with not only Joe, but Andy and Finley and Allen. Zac Taylor just hasn't been very good at dialing up plays inside the 20.

The other big problem is Burrow had no number "number 1" receiver last year. AJ Green was almost useless, yet they kept forcing throws to him. I don't care if it's Joe Montana or Aaron Rodgers back there, no QB was going to have a lot of success targeting AJ Green so much. Then throw in the fact he had no receiving option at TE, which is someone most QB's in modern football enjoy. It's not like he was left with a slew of weapons to choose from.

I think if he can keep that completion percentage where it's at, or hopefully even raise it a couple of points, and just starting hitting on some more stuff down the field then you'll see his number jump. If Chase can prove to be a decent down the field threat, if Uzomah can be an upgrade over Sample, if the OL can even marginally improve, and if Zac Taylor can do a little bit better with his playcalling, then I don't see any reason Burrow can't finish top half of the league in most stats. And none of this is really asking for the world either; it seems pretty reasonable as far as expectations go.

If for some reasons I'm wrong, and he ends year 2 in the bottom half, then that should be the nail in the coffin for Taylor. You can't continue to waste time with this kid's career. There is absolutely no reason he shouldn't make a jump in year 2, coming off an injury or not.