The Slot is Dead

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2024, 07:53 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Marvin always said, for the majority of wide receivers coming into the league, it takes them 3 years to get up to speed and play at full potential. Everyone is not a Chase or Jefferson or Green

Well if Marvin said it

[SunsetBengal]

(10-22-2024, 09:32 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Trey still has another year left on his deal. He will also be 32 when he becomes a UFA. Not typically the Bengals M.O.

Hill is a good player, but would also be on the wrong side of 30 going into a new deal.

Tee is a 25 year old top 4 player on the team.

Both of those guys showing little sign of slowing down. I think that you really have to weigh the cost of re-sign versus replace with those two, as I'm thinking that finding equal to or better talent that is younger than those guys would be a very expensive proposition.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2024, 09:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Both of those guys showing little sign of slowing down. I think that you really have to weigh the cost of re-sign versus replace with those two, as I'm thinking that finding equal to or better talent that is younger than those guys would be a very expensive proposition.

I’m just going off how the Bengals typically operate. Handing out large 3rd contracts to guys over 30 is just not their thing. Trey i would hope they make an exception for if he puts together another very good season next year, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

[*Synric*]

(10-21-2024, 01:46 PM)3wt Wrote: What's been wrong with Iosivas?   Is it a separation thing or contested catching?

He's made some really nice receptions.

It's disturbing that we can't find a way to expand Burton's role and snaps.  The guy has skills.  He gets open, he has speed and he has hands of steel.   He must be a really slow study.   I don't know, but I hope he catches up!  I see him on the sidelines and he does not seem to be pouting or not paying attention.

I have this dream that towards the end of the season he's going to be unveiled as a reliable and dangerous option.

Just experience. For example there was more than a couple times early this year where Iosivas was running his route full speed through a zone into coverage instead of just gearing down a little in the passing window. It's mostly nuanced stuff like that.

Iosivas will likely continue seeing a decent percentage of snaps and is talented so growth there is still possible. 

[sandwedge]

(10-22-2024, 11:12 AM)Synric Wrote: Just experience. For example there was more than a couple times early this year where Iosivas was running his route full speed through a zone into coverage instead of just gearing down a little in the passing window. It's mostly nuanced stuff like that.

Iosivas will likely continue seeing a decent percentage of snaps and is talented so growth there is still possible. 

C'mon, he has already been deemed in the "he sucks" realm by the vast majority here..

[Bengalbug]

(10-22-2024, 11:17 AM)sandwedge Wrote: C'mon, he has already been deemed in the "he sucks" realm by the vast majority here..

It’s not that he sucks. He needs development. For a “win now” team, this isn’t the time for our WR3 to be on field developing. That is the issue.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2024, 11:27 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: It’s not that he sucks. He needs development. For a “win now” team, this isn’t the time for our WR3 to be on field developing. That is the issue.

Not just win now, but a team that lives and dies off the passing game.

[Bengalbug]

(10-22-2024, 11:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not just win now, but a team that lives and dies off the passing game.

Joe burrow is most successful at 3WR sets. As much as I, and many fans/analysts, would like to see burrow run more under center and out of 2 TE sets… it’s just not utilizing Joe to his fullest potential. He is so good at reading coverage and getting through his progressions. His timing and quick decision making allows for him to get the ball where it needs to be in a hurry. That said, it requires good/great route running AND separation. Joe is one of the best at extending plays and making those madden-esque plays, but that can be the only way how a guy like Iosivas is successful.

This team, under Zac and Joe, will almost certainly never be all that balanced of a team (run:pass ratio). I can see some peoples point of view, we have Higgins and Chase… which is better than almost every team in the NFL, but for 2024, and how the bengals operate, we have a big hole.

I don’t even want to think of 2025 yet.

[*Synric*]

(10-22-2024, 11:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not just win now, but a team that lives and dies off the passing game.

If the Bengals want to continue to run heavy 12 personnel with Chase Brown, Drew Sample, and Erick All at least two of these guys need to get more involved in the passing offense. 

[Bengalbug]

(10-22-2024, 12:12 PM)Synric Wrote: If the Bengals want to continue to run heavy 12 personnel with Chase Brown, Drew Sample, and Erick All at least two of these guys need to get more involved in the passing offense. 

It’s what they do any to do “in theory”. In actuality, it’s not the most successful formation we have seen.

[Whatever]

(10-22-2024, 12:12 PM)Synric Wrote: If the Bengals want to continue to run heavy 12 personnel with Chase Brown, Drew Sample, and Erick All at least two of these guys need to get more involved in the passing offense. 

Problem is, we'll be lucky if we can get one more involved, let alone two.

Sample is what he is, at this point.  Just a safety valve, at best.

All is probably the best hope, but expecting a rookie 4th rounder to play a significant role in the offense isn't a recipe for success, typically.

Brown is showing why he was a 5th round pick.  He's a one tool back.  Folks just got stupidly overhyped because of some edited together training footage thinking he was going to be Saquon.

[3wt]

(10-21-2024, 01:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You can only do what you are allowed to do...

Erick All does everything asked of him. Best pick that I didn't initially like maybe ever.


He is notably slower, Boyd relies on his savvy now. You guys really think that he would be the difference for us?

We need 1 win and we are back to .500 and we have young, talented WR's and young, talented TE's that Burrow just doesn't look to yet.

They will figure it out.


Contested catching thing and the fact Joe just hasn't looked Yoshi's way as much because of it. Burton catches everything and the coaches
just need to get him on the field as long as he doesn't screw up his routes. Seriously think Joe needs to take Jermaine aside and work with 
him to get him up to speed for the 3rd option.

[quote pid='1526985' dateline='1729529535']
Agreed.  He's got the most raw talent of anyone not named Chase and Higgins.   Probably an ADD issue.  He doesn't seem to shy away from work here.  

Joe gets really pissed if players don't know where they are supposed to be.  His timing game is such a big part of his game and the starting point for every play.  If you have a guy that can't line up in the right spot and can't get to where he's supposed to be at the right time, Joe doesn't to have in on the field.  And I understand.

Joe has had a lot of happy feet issues this year for obvious reasons.  He doesn't have time for receivers to do something off script.  That's when he gets hurt or throws interceptions.

Ioshi does seem to have problems with contested catches.   I don't watch all 22 shots to see if separation is an issue.

If we can get those two producing any time soon, we'll have a real shot at the playoffs.  But until they step up we're going to be a mediocre team.
[/quote]

[Whatever]

(10-22-2024, 11:17 AM)sandwedge Wrote: C'mon, he has already been deemed in the "he sucks" realm by the vast majority here..

People say he sucks because he does, in fact, suck.  

Yes, he can improve. I think everyone HOPES he does.  But he will not be good until he PROVES on the field that he is good over an appreciable sample size.  Until then, he sucks.

For this offense, a lot is required from the WR3.  Boyd averaged 96 targets per year during the Burrow years.  Yoshi is on pace for 58, and arguably doesn't even deserve that many.  17 of his 24 Targets came the first three weeks of the season.  He is not capable of fulfilling the WR3 role in this offense at this point.  That much is painfully obvious.  Given his draft status, the chances that he will ever develop to the point where he can adequately fulfill that role are remote, and he has shown nothing to give any unbiased person the idea that he will.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-22-2024, 10:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’m just going off how the Bengals typically operate. Handing out large 3rd contracts to guys over 30 is just not their thing. Trey i would hope they make an exception for if he puts together another very good season next year, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

I wouldn't bet on Trey even playing next year if he doesn't get a new deal in the 2024-2025 offseason. He asked for a deal/trade just this last offseason and now he's on pace for back-to-back 17+ sack seasons.

In 2024 he's tied for 18th amongst Edge rushers in total cash for the year.
In 2025 he'll be 20th not counting the FAs and other guys getting extensions (Khalil Mack and Hassan Reddick both FAs, Twatt and Danielle Hunter both in the last year of their deals, Hutchenson, Travon Walker, Karlaftis, Thibodeaux, Mafe, Bonitto all eligible for extension. That'll almost certainly push Hendrickson down into the mid-low 20s.

Don't see him playing in 2025 on a 1yr/$16m deal and making the 25th-30th most cash that year among edge rushers. He'll never have more leverage and value.

[Sled21]

(10-22-2024, 09:35 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well if Marvin said it

Marvin is not and was not my favorite football coach, but he IS very knowledgeable about the game.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-22-2024, 07:53 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Marvin always said, for the majority of wide receivers coming into the league, it takes them 3 years to get up to speed and play at full potential. Everyone is not a Chase or Jefferson or Green

That was back in ye olden days. These days, with NCAA spread offenses and the explosion of passing, guys come into the league much better prepared. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-22-2024, 09:49 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Both of those guys showing little sign of slowing down. I think that you really have to weigh the cost of re-sign versus replace with those two, as I'm thinking that finding equal to or better talent that is younger than those guys would be a very expensive proposition.

Yeah. They need to do better than they did with Whit and be able to determine if/how many more years of production you can get. Not just the age number. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-22-2024, 12:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I wouldn't bet on Trey even playing next year if he doesn't get a new deal in the 2024-2025 offseason. He asked for a deal/trade just this last offseason and now he's on pace for back-to-back 17+ sack seasons.

In 2024 he's tied for 18th amongst Edge rushers in total cash for the year.
In 2025 he'll be 20th not counting the FAs and other guys getting extensions (Khalil Mack and Hassan Reddick both FAs, Twatt and Danielle Hunter both in the last year of their deals, Hutchenson, Travon Walker, Karlaftis, Thibodeaux, Mafe, Bonitto all eligible for extension. That'll almost certainly push Hendrickson down into the mid-low 20s.

Don't see him playing in 2025 on a 1yr/$16m deal and making the 25th-30th most cash that year among edge rushers. He'll never have more leverage and value.

If he gets another 17 or close sacks this year, they would be exceptionally dumb not to redo his contract and add a year or two.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-22-2024, 01:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah. They need to do better than they did with Whit and be able to determine if/how many more years of production you can get. Not just the age number. 

Yeah, with Hubbard getting slowing down from injuries the past couple seasons, I had really hoped that Myles Murphy would be one to step up and take over one of those DE spots. As of now, I don't think that he would produce much as a starter. He does well at defeating the initial block from the tackle, but looks like he's got sand in his boots when pursuing QBs, and get knocked off line easily when he should have a straight shot at the QB. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-22-2024, 12:49 PM)3wt Wrote: [quote pid='1526985' dateline='1729529535']
Agreed.  He's got the most raw talent of anyone not named Chase and Higgins.   Probably an ADD issue.  He doesn't seem to shy away from work here.  

Joe gets really pissed if players don't know where they are supposed to be.  His timing game is such a big part of his game and the starting point for every play.  If you have a guy that can't line up in the right spot and can't get to where he's supposed to be at the right time, Joe doesn't to have in on the field.  And I understand.

Joe has had a lot of happy feet issues this year for obvious reasons.  He doesn't have time for receivers to do something off script.  That's when he gets hurt or throws interceptions.

Ioshi does seem to have problems with contested catches.   I don't watch all 22 shots to see if separation is an issue.

If we can get those two producing any time soon, we'll have a real shot at the playoffs.  But until they step up we're going to be a mediocre team.

[/quote]

I wouldn't say a mediocre team, we have played 3 of the current top teams in the NFL to the wire in the Chiefs, Commanders and Ravens.

We definitely need WR3 to step up for sure as Burrow loves 3 WR sets, but the TE's were effective when used as well and when Burrow plays
under Center this Offense is much harder to stop. Burton like you said has the talent and there is something going on with the routes and how 
he is coming along but the guy was our best player in Preseason and just produced. Give the guy a chance and I think he will impress.

I don't think Yoshi is the answer at WR3, he is a good backup option for in the Red Zone no question, but he is not nearly as talented in catching
the ball as Jermaine Burton IMO.