Probably time to rebuild

[Joelist]

I'm starting to think it's rebuild time. Starting with getting rid of Lou and Pitcher and only allowing Zac to stay if he gives up ANY control over play calling.

Find a DC known for fundamentals (like Tackling) and a rational scheme. We have some pieces so let's put what we have in a realistic scheme, get back to fundamentals and build off these foundations. We can keep Trey, Jenkins, McKinnley, Battle, Wilson, Pratt and Murphy. The rest needs to be rebuilt.

In the same vein find an OC with a rational scheme and play calling tendencies. Settle on a line scheme and then build to it. OBJr and Mims can function in either a zone or a power scheme. Get us under center either way and run more often to create a culture of winning up front.

Sign Chase, either trade or let Tee go. Then comes the biggest part - sit with Burrow and Chase and no matter what it takes SELL THEM on the rebuild. If it takes Tobin going away do it. If it takes expanding scouting do it. And when we draft we draft players to fit our schemes - which hopefully have been set and are more rational.

This is of course a fantasy because it requires ownership to get their heads out of their navels.

[Big Boss]

So I'm an idiot when it comes to cap manipulation, etc.

If we assume for just one second that the front office is actually willing to try things differently this off-season, what is the path forward when you have to take into account Burrow's big fat contract and Chase's impending big fat contract? Because right now I see a defense in dire straits and an offensive line that still can't figure itself out.

[Au165]

(11-08-2024, 05:19 PM)Big Boss Wrote: So I'm an idiot when it comes to cap manipulation, etc.

If we assume for just one second that the front office is actually willing to try things differently this off-season, what is the path forward when you have to take into account Burrow's big fat contract and Chase's impending big fat contract?  Because right now I see a defense in dire straits and an offensive line that still can't figure itself out.

We are actually in a good place to clean house.

On the offensive side you could....

• Cut Cappa and save 8 Million of his 10 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Karras and save 4.8 Million of his 6 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Moss and save 3.5 Million of his 5 Million Cap hit next year
  

On the defensive side you could...

• Cut Sam Hubbard and save 9.6 Million on his 11 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Sheldon Rankings and save 9.5 Million on his 11 Million cap hit next year
• Cut Geno Stone and save 6.5 Million on his 8 Million Cap hit next year.
  

This would add nearly 42 Million to the already 65 Million we are projected to have next season. We could enter the off season with 100 Million and while Chase is due a deal my guess is his cap number for 25 which is already 21.2 million would maybe only increase 4-6 million. Assuming we resign Trey expect his cap number to go up probably 6-8 million so we are now 10-12 Million off of the 100. 

You now have about 90 Million to fill roughly 20 roster spots. They will have 6 draft picks and we can assume the cap hit for those will be about 4 Million so let's say we got 86 Million to fill 14 spots. You can assume 6-8 of those will be veterans on smaller deals, probably something with a cap hit around 2-3 Million so let's call it about 15 Million for those. This leaves us with about 70 Million in cap to fill the last 6-8 slots.

I think with that money we could definitely find some IOL, CB, and DE upgrades.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-08-2024, 05:17 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm starting to think it's rebuild time. Starting with getting rid of Lou and Pitcher and only allowing Zac to stay if he gives up ANY control over play calling.

Find a DC known for fundamentals (like Tackling) and a rational scheme. We have some pieces so let's put what we have in a realistic scheme, get back to fundamentals and build off these foundations. We can keep Trey, Jenkins, McKinnley, Battle, Wilson, Pratt and Murphy. The rest needs to be rebuilt.

In the same vein find an OC with a rational scheme and play calling tendencies. Settle on a line scheme and then build to it. OBJr and Mims can function in either a zone or a power scheme. Get us under center either way and run more often to create a culture of winning up front.

Sign Chase, either trade or let Tee go. Then comes the biggest part - sit with Burrow and Chase and no matter what it takes SELL THEM on the rebuild. If it takes Tobin going away do it. If it takes expanding scouting do it. And when we draft we draft players to fit our schemes - which hopefully have been set and are more rational.

This is of course a fantasy because it requires ownership to get their heads out of their navels.

Agree, I am not one to give up on a season but this team shoots themselves in the foot far too often and are losing close games which is a 
sign of bad coaching. Would be fine with keeping Zac but the rest needs to go on the coaching staff. Extend Chase, Trey and have new coaches
work with the rest. Above all though we need a new GM with a vision, Tobin needs to go.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-08-2024, 05:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: We are actually in a good place to clean house.

On the offensive side you could....

• Cut Cappa and save 8 Million of his 10 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Karras and save 4.8 Million of his 6 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Moss and save 3.5 Million of his 5 Million Cap hit next year
  

On the defensive side you could...

• Cut Sam Hubbard and save 9.6 Million on his 11 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Sheldon Rankings and save 9.5 Million on his 11 Million cap hit next year
• Cut Geno Stone and save 6.5 Million on his 8 Million Cap hit next year.
  

This would add nearly 42 Million to the already 65 Million we are projected to have next season. We could enter the off season with 100 Million and while Chase is due a deal my guess is his cap number for 25 which is already 21.2 million would maybe only increase 4-6 million. Assuming we resign Trey expect his cap number to go up probably 6-8 million so we are now 10-12 Million off of the 100. 

You now have about 90 Million to fill roughly 20 roster spots. They will have 6 draft picks and we can assume the cap hit for those will be about 4 Million so let's say we got 86 Million to fill 14 spots. You can assume 6-8 of those will be veterans on smaller deals, probably something with a cap hit around 2-3 Million so let's call it about 15 Million for those. This leaves us with about 70 Million in cap to fill the last 6-8 slots.

I think with that money we could definitely find some IOL, CB, and DE upgrades.

You nailed the cap situation. They should 10000% make all those cuts you mentioned (save maybe the Karras one), but I really fear they won't. 

They can free up a ton of space and basically "redo" their FA aquisitions this off-season and rebuild/upgrade this roster quite quickly if they really wanted to. It's going to take some cutthroat cuts, though. Do they have the balls to make some serious business decisions? Are they willing to look a guy like Hubbard in the face and say "see ya later"? 

[*bfine32*]

I can get behind replacing the DC, but the O is humming

[Bengalbro]

I wouldnt cut Moss or Hubbard or karras. But the other 3 I would

And I would try to extend Hill-Hilton and Gesicki asap

[Au165]

(11-08-2024, 05:46 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: I wouldnt cut Moss or Hubbard or karras. But the other 3 I would

And I would try to extend Hill-Hilton and Gesicki asap

Hubbard is paid WAY above market value for an end that provides no pass rushing value. Karras is just old is the problem, it's a case where you want to get in front of it before he falls way off. Moss...not good and frankly we can find someone in the draft to be the same guy.

[GodFather]

(11-08-2024, 05:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: We are actually in a good place to clean house.

On the offensive side you could....

• Cut Cappa and save 8 Million of his 10 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Karras and save 4.8 Million of his 6 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Moss and save 3.5 Million of his 5 Million Cap hit next year
  

On the defensive side you could...

• Cut Sam Hubbard and save 9.6 Million on his 11 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Sheldon Rankings and save 9.5 Million on his 11 Million cap hit next year
• Cut Geno Stone and save 6.5 Million on his 8 Million Cap hit next year.
  

This would add nearly 42 Million to the already 65 Million we are projected to have next season. We could enter the off season with 100 Million and while Chase is due a deal my guess is his cap number for 25 which is already 21.2 million would maybe only increase 4-6 million. Assuming we resign Trey expect his cap number to go up probably 6-8 million so we are now 10-12 Million off of the 100. 

You now have about 90 Million to fill roughly 20 roster spots. They will have 6 draft picks and we can assume the cap hit for those will be about 4 Million so let's say we got 86 Million to fill 14 spots. You can assume 6-8 of those will be veterans on smaller deals, probably something with a cap hit around 2-3 Million so let's call it about 15 Million for those. This leaves us with about 70 Million in cap to fill the last 6-8 slots.

I think with that money we could definitely find some IOL, CB, and DE upgrades.

or the front office could do everything you said cutting players and do what they do best. Let chase play on his 5th year option because they couldnt come to an agreement, say they will build through the draft and sign some half ass players that should serve as backup roles versus starting. 

Then Mike Brown will cut into his Jack Ruby's prime steak, lick his lips and look at his daughter and raise a glass and toast with her saying "We always do it...the Brown way"

     

[Bengalbro]

(11-08-2024, 05:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: Hubbard is paid WAY above market value for an end that provides no pass rushing value. Karras is just old is the problem, it's a case where you want to get in front of it before he falls way off. Moss...not good and frankly we can find someone in the draft to be the same guy.

Karras is solid on and off the field
Moss is fine as a secondary back and pass protector. 
Hubbard's play has increased but I could see the argument here. 

[WeezyBengal]

(11-08-2024, 05:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can get behind replacing the DC, but the O is humming

Agree. 

I think Lou and Pollack will be casualties this off-season. I can get behind that. Im not replacing Zach or Pitcher yet though. I like the continuity there. 

[StoneTheCrow]

Keep Pitcher, fire Pollack 15 hours ago. Fire Lou Bresnahan 15 hours ago. Go from there. What’s Vrabel up to?

[WeezyBengal]

(11-08-2024, 05:46 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: I wouldnt cut Moss or Hubbard or karras. But the other 3 I would

And I would try to extend Hill-Hilton and Gesicki asap

Moss and Hubbard give you nothing at this point. 

I'd look into possibly restructering Hubbard, but there is no way on earth he should be getting more than 15% of the snaps. 

[Au165]

(11-08-2024, 05:50 PM)Bengalbro Wrote: Karras is solid on and off the field
Moss is fine as a secondary back and pass protector. 
Hubbard's play has increased but I could see the argument here. 

• Karras is okay, the bigger thing is we need to get better and younger on the inside. 
• Moss is overpaid for what he is. He is a 3.3 yard per carry guy (very bad) who isn't that great at pass protection. He is the 20th highest paid HB in the league and his cap hit next year will move him closer to top 15.
  

[Bengalbro]

(11-08-2024, 05:52 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Moss and Hubbard give you nothing at this point. 

I'd look into possibly restructering Hubbard, but there is no way on earth he should be getting more than 15% of the snaps. 

Pass blocking and run stopping. They are both solid at those areas. Not flashy for people who are new to watching football but important. 

[Bengalbro]

They arent extending Karras 1 year and then cutting him. What is this?

[*bfine32*]

(11-08-2024, 05:54 PM)Au165 Wrote:

• Karras is okay, the bigger thing is we need to get better and younger on the inside. 
• Moss is overpaid for what he is. He is a 3.3 yard per carry guy (very bad) who isn't that great at pass protection. He is the 20th highest paid HB in the league and his cap hit next year will move him closer to top 15.
  

I liked James Daniels over Billy Price in the draft. He's a FA this off-season, only 27, and currently carrying about a 95 rating in PFF.

Teven Jenkins was who we shoulda/coulda taken over Carman. He's also a FA upcoming. 

[*Synric*]

Justin Madubuike has 5 sacks this year 4 of them are against the Bengals....

[*Synric*]

(11-08-2024, 05:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: We are actually in a good place to clean house.

On the offensive side you could....

• Cut Cappa and save 8 Million of his 10 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Karras and save 4.8 Million of his 6 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Moss and save 3.5 Million of his 5 Million Cap hit next year
  

On the defensive side you could...

• Cut Sam Hubbard and save 9.6 Million on his 11 Million Cap hit next year
• Cut Sheldon Rankings and save 9.5 Million on his 11 Million cap hit next year
• Cut Geno Stone and save 6.5 Million on his 8 Million Cap hit next year.
  

This would add nearly 42 Million to the already 65 Million we are projected to have next season. We could enter the off season with 100 Million and while Chase is due a deal my guess is his cap number for 25 which is already 21.2 million would maybe only increase 4-6 million. Assuming we resign Trey expect his cap number to go up probably 6-8 million so we are now 10-12 Million off of the 100. 

You now have about 90 Million to fill roughly 20 roster spots. They will have 6 draft picks and we can assume the cap hit for those will be about 4 Million so let's say we got 86 Million to fill 14 spots. You can assume 6-8 of those will be veterans on smaller deals, probably something with a cap hit around 2-3 Million so let's call it about 15 Million for those. This leaves us with about 70 Million in cap to fill the last 6-8 slots.

I think with that money we could definitely find some IOL, CB, and DE upgrades.

The league is hurting for starting OL if they do decide to move on from Cappa and Karras they could probabaly trade them for Late Day 3 picks that could turn into Early Day 3 picks in 2026. (Cap hits for the other team will be less 7m for Cappa, 4.2m for Karras.)

[Bengalbro]

Started mapping things out a bit....numbers are years they are FAs

QB Burrow 29 Browning 26 Woodside
RB Brown 27 Moss 26 NEED NEED Milton
WR Chase 26 Burton 28 Burgess
WR NEED Iosivas 27 Pryor
WR Gesicki 25 Jones 27
TE All 28 Sample 27 Hudson 25 McClachlan 28 Grandy
LT Brown 27 NEED Coker
LG NEED Volson 26
C Karras 26 Lee 28 Hill
RG NEED Kirkland Manning
RT Mims 29 Ford 25 Cochran Steuber 25

K McPherson 28
P Rehkow 27
LS Adomitis 25

LE Murphy 27 Hubbard 26 Sample 25
LT Jenkins 28 Jackson 28 NEED Rogers
RT Hill 25 NEED
RE Hendrickson 26 NEED Johnson 28 Johnson
WLB Pratt 26 Bachie 25 Heyward
MLB Wilson 28 Njongmeta 27
S NEED Anderson 26 Anthony 28
S NEED Battle 27 Jules
CB Hill 27 Taylor-Britt 26 Robinson 28 Abraham
CB Turner 27 Ivey 27 Brooks
NB Hilton 25 Newton 28 Davis