Will longevity result in Dalton as best Bengals QB ever?

[TecmoBengals]

I know the post-season is where it counts.

Dalton: 0-4
Palmer: 0-2 (Started and only attempted 1 pass in ’05 game)
Boomer: 3-2
Anderson: 2-4

As Vanilla said, Anderson had his two playoff wins in one season. How much does one playoff run factor in? If Dalton ever has a Joe Flacco like playoff run and Super Bowl win, I would imagine we'll all be loving the guy as "the best" Bengal QB ever?

[Joelist]

Really? We're rehashing the playoff losses AGAIN?

You need to look at EVERYTHING that happened in those losses. Like receivers dropping easy catches like they were hot potatoes (see Gresham, Jermaine and Green, AJ), being beaten like a rented mule on both lines, bizarre coaching decisions (lest we forget the using AJ Green as a decoy for an entire half) and so on. Sorry but the commonality here is the coaches, as this happened twice prior to the Andy era with the same symptoms. For whatever reason when we get to postseason our coaching staff seems to have their brains gushing out of their ears.

[wolfkaosaun]

Of course he has a chance to be. He's already been to the playoffs as many times as Anderson.

Heck, if you count this past year he's taen his team to the playoffs 5 times. That's more than Anderson.

Sure, one can argue we had talent. But 2011 NO ONE thought we were even going to win more than 5 games. Many even saw us as having the #1 overall pick. Heck, there were even discussions on the old board before the 2011 season whether we should draft Luck or not.

Dalton has done some pretty great things. Even compared to his peers. Is he elite? No. But Dalton has proven the point that sometimes it takes QBs time to get better.

Honestly, I see a lot of Drew Brees in Dalton. Compare both of their early careers together. Both showed flashes but also question marks. Took Brees 4 years of starting to finally become the QB we all know him by today. Heck, it even took Brees until his 5th year starting to win a playoff game.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-30-2016, 04:01 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Of course he has a chance to be. He's already been to the playoffs as many times as Anderson.

Heck, if you count this past year he's taen his team to the playoffs 5 times. That's more than Anderson.

Sure, one can argue we had talent. But 2011 NO ONE thought we were even going to win more than 5 games. Many even saw us as having the #1 overall pick. Heck, there were even discussions on the old board before the 2011 season whether we should draft Luck or not.

Dalton has done some pretty great things. Even compared to his peers. Is he elite? No. But Dalton has proven the point that sometimes it takes QBs time to get better.

Honestly, I see a lot of Drew Brees in Dalton. Compare both of their early careers together. Both showed flashes but also question marks. Took Brees 4 years of starting to finally become the QB we all know him by today. Heck, it even took Brees until his 5th year starting to win a playoff game.

I agree 100% with what you're saying, but I don't think Drew Brees became Drew Brees until he went to New Orleans. That was his 6th season. 

I'm just hoping that Hue Jackson wasn't Dalton's Sean Payton. You'd think Hue's work with Dalton would've been enough to get him the HC gig here.

[bengalguy71]

(05-29-2016, 08:27 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: What will result in Dalton being the best Bengal will be a Super Bowl win or multiple Super Bowl wins.

I agree, for me playoff wins are meaningless, unless you win the last one.  Wayyyyyyy too much credit given to non-SB playoff wins, IMHO.  Playoff wins get you nothing unless you win the last game.

Getting to the playoffs is just as difficult, if not more so, than playoff victories.

You can't win a SB unless you are one of the 12 teams who make the playoffs.

[wolfkaosaun]

(05-30-2016, 06:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree 100% with what you're saying, but I don't think Drew Brees became Drew Brees until he went to New Orleans. That was his 6th season. 

I'm just hoping that Hue Jackson wasn't Dalton's Sean Payton. You'd think Hue's work with Dalton would've been enough to get him the HC gig here.

I was going by seasons started, which would have been his 5th year being a starter. So technically you're right, I just wasn't including the year where he played literally one game.

You would think that, but at the same time why would they move on from Lewis after they went 10-2 with Dalton? That would be such a big move to make, and even a hard one. 2015 will go down as the biggest "What if" year in Bengals history, in my opinion. Dalton stays healthy, there's no telling how this team could have ended up. Heck. May have even had the #1 seed and we don't even have to worry about the Steelers in the playoffs. But alas, huge what ifs all around.

Sure, some may say 2005 but 2015 had so much more potential and more veteran leadership.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-30-2016, 06:34 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Sure, some may say 2005 but 2015 had so much more potential and more veteran leadership.

2015 was like 2005 all over again. Team looked unstoppable, MVP-caliber play at QB. Said QB gets hurt against the Steelers. We lose a controversial playoff game to the Steelers in Cincy. Go figure it happens exactly 10 years later.

[wolfkaosaun]

(05-30-2016, 06:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2015 was like 2005 all over again. Team looked unstoppable, MVP-caliber play at QB. Said QB gets hurt against the Steelers. We lose a controversial playoff game to the Steelers in Cincy. Go figure it happens exactly 10 years later.

They were very similar. I think there's more cases to be made that 2015 was better, but basically the same exact story. Sad, really.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-30-2016, 06:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2015 was like 2005 all over again. Team looked unstoppable, MVP-caliber play at QB. Said QB gets hurt against the Steelers. We lose a controversial playoff game to the Steelers in Cincy. Go figure it happens exactly 10 years later.

Way better Defense in 2015.

[BengalChris]

With the passing rules the way they are today you can't compare yards, completions or TDs. Anderson was league MVP and passing leader. Dalton hasn't done either and really hasn't even been runner up for either.

Dalton could pass Boomer and Anderson in yards and TDs and still be a long ways away from becoming the Bengals best ever QB. He's going to have to win a Super Bowl to gain that position. Anderson took us to a SB and so did Boomer, so getting to the SB still wouldn't make him the best ever. He's going to have to come away with a victory to cement the top position.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-30-2016, 09:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Way better Defense in 2015.

Agreed, although I don't think that 2005 bunch was nearly as bad as some say. They did lead the NFL in turnovers and they had some really good games that helped us get some wins.

That said, I still think there were a lot of similarities in those 2 seasons, the excitement level, and how those seasons played out. Yeah, like everyone else, I do think this current team is more complete.

[BFritz21]

I agree that at least one playoff win is needed to be even considered in the same argument as the best, but I think what everyone is missing are his intangibles.

He's a leader and makes the players around him better. He's also always trying to better himself and doing what it takes to be the best and to win.

In next season's playoffs, I think he'll take the team on his back and carry the team and fanbase to at least one playoff victory, and then you can start discussing him as the best.

As of right now, I see him as the best Bengals' QB of all-time among Bengals' QBs without a playoff win.

[*Nately120*]

(05-30-2016, 03:19 PM)Joelist Wrote: Really? We're rehashing the playoff losses AGAIN?

You need to look at EVERYTHING that happened in those losses. Like receivers dropping easy catches like they were hot potatoes (see Gresham, Jermaine and Green, AJ), being beaten like a rented mule on both lines, bizarre coaching decisions (lest we forget the using AJ Green as a decoy for an entire half) and so on. Sorry but the commonality here is the coaches, as this happened twice prior to the Andy era with the same symptoms. For whatever reason when we get to postseason our coaching staff seems to have their brains gushing out of their ears.

So let's just assume Billups doesn't drop that easy INT and Esiason won the Super Bowl in 1988.  Guess he's the best!

(05-30-2016, 06:12 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I agree, for me playoff wins are meaningless, unless you win the last one.  Wayyyyyyy too much credit given to non-SB playoff wins, IMHO.  Playoff wins get you nothing unless you win the last game.

Getting to the playoffs is just as difficult, if not more so, than playoff victories.

You can't win a SB unless you are one of the 12 teams who make the playoffs.

Er...but you can't win a playoff game unless you get to the playoffs.  I think by this point I'd trade 5-straight one-n-dones for 1 or 2 playoff runs that actually involved 1 or more victories.  Let's face it, we haven't even felt a single Bengals playoff run in 25 years so assuming it wouldn't be nearly as gratifying as 5-straight one-n-dones is pure conjecture.

We made the playoffs 7 times in 11 years and won 0 of those games. I'm not sure I can say that I find 7 playoff appearances better than X number of playoff wins and not be talking out of my arse.

[Atomic Orange]

Dalton has done some pretty impressive things considering he has never had a vet QB to learn anything from, a vet receiver to throw to (Aj gets a pat on the back here as well), 2 different OC's.. and tons of haters and negative media.

I love the guy.

[XenoMorph]

(05-29-2016, 06:15 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I believe most would agree the main Bengals franchise QBs throughout the organization’s history are Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Carson Palmer, and Andy Dalton.  The four QBs rank in the top four for franchise history in games played by a Bengals QB:  Anderson – 192, Boomer – 134, Palmer – 97, and Dalton – 77.

My question for the forum posters, if Dalton continues to play long enough and passes Palmer in games and then reaches total games played similar to Boomer and Anderson, does it make him the best Bengals QB ever?  Dalton does play in the modern-pass friendly QB league, but he is in contention to break all-time Bengal QB records.  A small sample of stats:

Dalton ranks 4th for completions:
1. Anderson – 2654
2. Palmer – 2024
3. Boomer – 2015
4. Dalton – 1556

Dalton ranks 4th in yards thrown:
1. Anderson – 32838
2. Boomer – 27149
3. Palmer – 22694
4. Dalton – 18008

Dalton ranks 4th for TDs:
1. Anderson – 197
2. Boomer – 187
3. Palmer – 154
4. Dalton 124

I understand there are other statistics to consider, season win totals, Pro Bowls, MVP awards, trips to playoffs, playoff wins, Super Bowl appearances, and other factors to consider when determining who is the best all-time Bengals QB.

If Andy Dalton has longevity as a Bengals QB does he have a case for being the Bengals all-time franchise, best QB over Anderson, Boomer, and Palmer?

All it will take is 1 SB ring to be the Best Bengals QB ever.

[wolfkaosaun]

(05-30-2016, 11:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote: With the passing rules the way they are today you can't compare yards, completions or TDs. Anderson was league MVP and passing leader. Dalton hasn't done either and really hasn't even been runner up for either.

Dalton could pass Boomer and Anderson in yards and TDs and still be a long ways away from becoming the Bengals best ever QB. He's going to have to win a Super Bowl to gain that position. Anderson took us to a SB and so did Boomer, so getting to the SB still wouldn't make him the best ever. He's going to have to come away with a victory to cement the top position.

To be fair, it's always better to compare yards, completions, and TDs with their peers rather than throughout the ages. Anderson did well in 74 and 75, but basically did very little until his MVP year in 1981.

Heck, Anderson didn't win his first playoff game until his 10th year in the NFL. And that's when he was the MVP. Also that's the only year he ever won a playoff game in his 15 year career.

Boomer did well in 1988. No lie. But in his 8 years on the team he made the playoffs twice.

Dalton played his 5th season. Was on a MVP type level. But he didn't get a chance to finish his 5th year. Dalton certainly has time and has a chance to be the greatest QB of all time. Even if he makes the Super Bowl and doesn't win it, he's had more success than Boomer and Anderson if you were to look at their careers as a whole at that point.

[BengalChris]

You can't compare Dalton to Boomer to Anderson on a pure stat basis or even number of times to the playoffs. And here's why:

1. Defensive rules now make the passing game easier and are designed to allow more yards, completions and TDs.
2. There are two more playoff spots now than there were. The Bengals have gotten to the playoffs 3 times as the 6th seed while Dalton was QB. Under the playoff format from Anderson's and Boomer's days those would not have been playoff teams. So playoff appearances don't count for much when comparing the two eras. Both Anderson and Boomer went further and won more against better teams in the post season.
3. The Bengals defense today and really the last several years has been a better overall defense for a longer period of time than either Anderson or Boomer had.

When you compare Anderson to his contemporaries he's one of the best of his time. Multiple passing titles and MVP. In the years Anderson led the league in passing Fran Tarkington and Ken Stabler took the MVP awards. Anderson had MVP votes in a number of years where he was competing with guys like OJ Simpson, Franco Harris, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, etc. Anderson held his own and belongs in the HoF.

To really give an idea of how the league has changed, Boomer won the MVP with these stats: 3572 yards, 57.5 completion percent, 28 TD, 14 INT - These are stats of a middle of the road QB these days, yet 28 years ago they were good enough to win an MVP award.

I'm not say Dalton can't become the Bengals best ever QB, but I will say that he's going to have to do more and do it better than he has.

[Essex Johnson]

Here is what you can compare.. wins and losses.. If you look at Daltons winning percentage after 5 season compared to Anderson and Boomer, he is on a pace to have the most wins and greatest winning percentage.. Regardless of the variables you try to throw in , the bottom line is winning, which Dalton is doing very well. Also I would say you can compare making the playoffs since we take more teams now, well it is very little difference really since there are more teams. When Anderson played 4 out of 13 his first 3 years, then 4 out of 14, Dalton era is 6 out of 16. Also Anderson took us to playoff offs 2 out of his first 5 years starting QB.. Dalton also would be 2 out of 5 using your 1970s equation.

Now, i have stated before I feel Anderson is a HOFer.. but what Dalton has done in his first 5 years puts him in position to have a chance to be spoken with Anderson as best QB.. I already feel Dalton after a couple more solid years will pass Boomer.

[BengalChris]

(06-02-2016, 11:14 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Here is what you can compare.. wins and losses.. If you look at Daltons winning percentage after 5 season compared to Anderson and Boomer, he is on a pace to have the most wins and greatest winning percentage..  Regardless of the variables you try to throw in , the bottom line is winning, which Dalton is doing very well.  Also I would say you can compare making the playoffs since we take more teams now, well it is very little difference really since there are more teams.   When Anderson played 4 out of 13 his first 3 years, then 4 out of 14, Dalton era is 6 out of 16.  Also Anderson took us to playoff offs 2 out of his first 5 years starting QB.. Dalton also would be 2 out of 5 using your 1970s equation.

Now, i have stated  before I feel Anderson is a HOFer.. but what Dalton has done in his first 5 years puts him in position to have a chance to be spoken with Anderson as best QB.. I already feel Dalton after a couple more solid years will pass Boomer.

Wins and losses just don't do it cause it's a team game. Boomer's career died with Paul Brown and Mikey B started his 90's disaster run at how lowly can one make a professional sports team. But if you want to talk wins and losses, then 0-4 in playoffs is something you can't sidestep. It's not just a bad record, it's tied for worst ever in NFL history.

You more or less have to compare them to their contemporaries and how they fared in their day against other top QBs. In today's playoff format two extra teams make it every year, seeds 5 and 6 wouldn't have counted back with Anderson and Boomer were playing.

Dalton needs to:
1. Win an MVP award. So far he's yet to receive a single vote, but both Anderson and Boomer won it.
2. Go to a SB. If he wants to pass Anderson, the team needs to win it.
3. A passing title wouldn't hurt his cause.

[Essex Johnson]

(06-03-2016, 01:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wins and losses just don't do it cause it's a team game. Boomer's career died with Paul Brown and Mikey B started his 90's disaster run at how lowly can one make a professional sports team. But if you want to talk wins and losses, then 0-4 in playoffs is something you can't sidestep. It's not just a bad record, it's tied for worst ever in NFL history.

You more or less have to compare them to their contemporaries and how they fared in their day against other top QBs. In today's playoff format two extra teams make it every year, seeds 5 and 6 wouldn't have counted back with Anderson and Boomer were playing.

Dalton needs to:
1. Win an MVP award. So far he's yet to receive a single vote, but both Anderson and Boomer won it.
2. Go to a SB. If he wants to pass Anderson, the team needs to win it.
3. A passing title wouldn't hurt his cause.

All records are team things but on offensive the QB touches the ball pretty much every step and yes QB are judged by their win and loss record.  Funny how you want to bash Dalton for playoff record but seem to give little credit to his great regular season success.

 I guess you have your variables for judging QBs and I have mine

as for comparing the Bengals being bad when Boomer QB them.. how bad were the Bengals when Dalton took over ?? sorry that logic does not fly to me, Bengals were horrible when Dalton took over the franchise.. Boomer was the QB when the Bengals started down their terrible demise.. that is a fact regardless who you blame 

As for comparing QBs with contemporaries.. Dalton stands up very well against those that have come into the league in the last 5 years.  Dalton is considered one of the top QBs today, that speaks for itself. 

Anderson is ahead of Dalton.. I give Dalton edge over Boomer at this stage in his career and feel he is on pace to surpass Boomer soon and on the heels of Anderson overall.