Will longevity result in Dalton as best Bengals QB ever?

[BengalChris]

(06-03-2016, 02:48 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: All records are team things but on offensive the QB touches the ball pretty much every step and yes QB are judged by their win and loss record.  Funny how you want to bash Dalton for playoff record but seem to give little credit to his great regular season success.

 I guess you have your variables for judging QBs and I have mine

as for comparing the Bengals being bad when Boomer QB them.. how bad were the Bengals when Dalton took over ?? sorry that logic does not fly to me, Bengals were horrible when Dalton took over the franchise.. Boomer was the QB when the Bengals started down their terrible demise.. that is a fact regardless who you blame 

As for comparing QBs with contemporaries.. Dalton stands up very well against those that have come into the league in the last 5 years.  Dalton is considered one of the top QBs today, that speaks for itself. 

Anderson is ahead of Dalton.. I give Dalton edge over Boomer at this stage in his career and feel he is on pace to surpass Boomer soon and on the heels of Anderson overall.  

I don't see this at all, if you use wins and losses as you gotta consider the playoffs as the standard bearer as those are against the top teams of the day. And setting a worse ever record eliminates the status right there.

Not sure how anyone could compare 2010 with the start of the 90's and not have the 90's give them a headache. One was a team on the rise while the other was a team going over a cliff.

Why limit the QBs you compare Dalton to those who came in the last 5 years? Too cherry picky. He's yet to challenge for a top 5 spot. Maybe he will this year with Manning retired.

I believe Dalton will overtake Boomer. I hope he overtakes Anderson. But I'm unwilling to grant him that status until he actually earns it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-30-2016, 11:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed, although I don't think that 2005 bunch was nearly as bad as some say. They did lead the NFL in turnovers and they had some really good games that helped us get some wins.

That said, I still think there were a lot of similarities in those 2 seasons, the excitement level, and how those seasons played out. Yeah, like everyone else, I do think this current team is more complete.

There was definately a lot of the same excitement no doubt.

But yeah, this current team on both sides of the ball especially on Defense is much more complete no doubt.

The additions of Dansby and hopefully Freeney could really boost us even more.

I know it seems like i say it every year but the last Playoff game was different and we should of won with a
backup QB if not for a Hill fumble. We are getting closer to that first Playoff win and once that is off our backs
i think we can go all the way with this team. Not one team in this league should scare this team when healthy
especially if Dalton keeps up what he was doing last year.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-03-2016, 01:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Wins and losses just don't do it cause it's a team game. Boomer's career died with Paul Brown and Mikey B started his 90's disaster run at how lowly can one make a professional sports team. But if you want to talk wins and losses, then 0-4 in playoffs is something you can't sidestep. It's not just a bad record, it's tied for worst ever in NFL history.

You more or less have to compare them to their contemporaries and how they fared in their day against other top QBs. In today's playoff format two extra teams make it every year, seeds 5 and 6 wouldn't have counted back with Anderson and Boomer were playing.

Dalton needs to:
1. Win an MVP award. So far he's yet to receive a single vote, but both Anderson and Boomer won it.
2. Go to a SB. If he wants to pass Anderson, the team needs to win it.
3. A passing title wouldn't hurt his cause.

1. Well in fairness, he most likely would've received votes had he finished out the season. CBS had him 4th in the MVP race after his 12th game, right before he got injured: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25408531/nfl-mvp-projection-heres-why-cam-newton-is-the-front-runner

2. You start off your post by saying that wins and losses don't matter cause it's a team game. So wouldn't reaching the Super Bowl also be a team accomplishment? You can't have it both ways. It seems you want to dismiss Dalton's regular season wins while highlighting his playoff losses.

3. Most consider the "passing title" to be the top rated passer. Dalton finished 2nd last season, and it took a huge late season push from Russell Wilson to pass him.

[BengalChris]

(06-03-2016, 02:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Well in fairness, he most likely would've received votes had he finished out the season. CBS had him 4th in the MVP race after his 12th game, right before he got injured: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25408531/nfl-mvp-projection-heres-why-cam-newton-is-the-front-runner

2. You start off your post by saying that wins and losses don't matter cause it's a team game. So wouldn't reaching the Super Bowl also be a team accomplishment? You can't have it both ways. It seems you want to dismiss Dalton's regular season wins while highlighting his playoff losses.

3. Most consider the "passing title" to be the top rated passer. Dalton finished 2nd last season, and it took a huge late season push from Russell Wilson to pass him.

1. Yes, but didn't finish out the season, and even if he did he wasn't going to win the MVP award. If our other top guys can do it, then certainly doing it also would go a long ways toward being in that top rung.

2. Wins losses and the SB aren't the same thing. Yes you need wins to get there, but you also need that "extra". And thus far that "extra" has eluded Dalton. I hope he finds it, but who does it serve to pretend like he's there when he hasn't done it?

3. I hadn't considered pass rating and anytime I search for "passing leader" I get yards in the results.

I'm not at all against giving Dalton credit for his accomplishments. I just don't believe it serves anyone to lay on such accolades before the accomplishments have been reached. There's nothing wrong with holding the bar high. In fact, it makes it all that much sweater when the high bar is achieved.

[Brownshoe]

(06-03-2016, 05:19 PM)BengalChris Wrote: 1. Yes, but didn't finish out the season, and even if he did he wasn't going to win the MVP award. If our other top guys can do it, then certainly doing it also would go a long ways toward being in that top rung.

2. Wins losses and the SB aren't the same thing. Yes you need wins to get there, but you also need that "extra". And thus far that "extra" has eluded Dalton. I hope he finds it, but who does it serve to pretend like he's there when he hasn't done it?

3. I hadn't considered pass rating and anytime I search for "passing leader" I get yards in the results.

I'm not at all against giving Dalton credit for his accomplishments. I just don't believe it serves anyone to lay on such accolades before the accomplishments have been reached. There's nothing wrong with holding the bar high. In fact, it makes it all that much sweater when the high bar is achieved.

1. You don't know if he wouldn't have won the MVP if he stayed healthy. He was about to play a very weak part of the schedule and could have torn up the defenses like he has been doing.

2. That makes no sense.

3. The you must think that Dalton was a top 10 QB in 2013 too. He was 7th in yards and 3rd in TDs that year.

Dalton has achieved more than any Bengals QB at this point in his career. He started with a team that was 4-12 and only been to the playoffs 2 times in 20 years and that only won the division 2 times in that span also. He has brought this team to the playoffs 5 out of 5 years and won the division 2 out of 5 years (and made it really close another year). I think he's set the bar extremely high since he's been breaking records and streaks since he's been here. The only thing we haven't done under Dalton is win in the post season.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-03-2016, 05:19 PM)BengalChris Wrote: 1. Yes, but didn't finish out the season, and even if he did he wasn't going to win the MVP award. If our other top guys can do it, then certainly doing it also would go a long ways toward being in that top rung.

2. Wins losses and the SB aren't the same thing. Yes you need wins to get there, but you also need that "extra". And thus far that "extra" has eluded Dalton. I hope he finds it, but who does it serve to pretend like he's there when he hasn't done it?

3. I hadn't considered pass rating and anytime I search for "passing leader" I get yards in the results.

I'm not at all against giving Dalton credit for his accomplishments. I just don't believe it serves anyone to lay on such accolades before the accomplishments have been reached. There's nothing wrong with holding the bar high. In fact, it makes it all that much sweater when the high bar is achieved.

Actually, last season, Andy was doing that "extra".  He was proving that he was capable of putting the offense on his back, and carrying it to victory.  I truly feel that if Andy had not broken his thumb, the Bengals would have went on to win that game, and likely have been in the SB.  Then, we would be arguing if Andy Dalton is the best Bengal QB ever, right now.

[wolfkaosaun]

(06-02-2016, 10:41 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You can't compare Dalton to Boomer to Anderson on a pure stat basis or even number of times to the playoffs. And here's why:

1. Defensive rules now make the passing game easier and are designed to allow more yards, completions and TDs.
2. There are two more playoff spots now than there were. The Bengals have gotten to the playoffs 3 times as the 6th seed while Dalton was QB. Under the playoff format from Anderson's and Boomer's days those would not have been playoff teams. So playoff appearances don't count for much when comparing the two eras. Both Anderson and Boomer went further and won more against better teams in the post season.
3. The Bengals defense today and really the last several years has been a better overall defense for a longer period of time than either Anderson or Boomer had.

When you compare Anderson to his contemporaries he's one of the best of his time. Multiple passing titles and MVP. In the years Anderson led the league in passing Fran Tarkington and Ken Stabler took the MVP awards. Anderson had MVP votes in a number of years where he was competing with guys like OJ Simpson, Franco Harris, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, etc. Anderson held his own and belongs in the HoF.

To really give an idea of how the league has changed, Boomer won the MVP with these stats: 3572 yards, 57.5 completion percent, 28 TD, 14 INT - These are stats of a middle of the road QB these days, yet 28 years ago they were good enough to win an MVP award.

I'm not say Dalton can't become the Bengals best ever QB, but I will say that he's going to have to do more and do it better than he has.

1. Yes you can compare players from different eras. But I only compared them to their peers, not each other. I'm comparing Dalton to how Matt Ryan and Cam Newton played, not how Boomer played years ago. That's the difference. That's how to tell who's done well because you compare them to other players in that era.

2. Back then there were only 14 teams in the conference. So they added more teams meaning more playoff spots. Plus it would have only added 2 more times where Anderson would have made the playoffs if they had a 6 playoff team system. Boomer would have made it to the playoffs only 3 times if they added the 6 team playoff system they have now. So Dalton STILL made the playoffs more than Boomer.

3. How so? They had a top 15 defense from 1987-1989. Top 10 in 1987. Same with the Bengals from 2011-2013. Then it 2014 they had a drop off as well.
Had a top 11 defense from 1974-76. Then again in 1978. Then again in 1980. #1 defense in 1983. So in 6 of Anderson's 15 year career, the defense was in the top 10.
Well, 13 years of him actually starting. So almost half the time he had a top 10 offense as a starting QB.

Yes, Anderson was voted as MVP. But it's not like he won MVP in his first few years. Took him until he was 32 years old to win MVP.

And you can compare Dalton to his peers lately as well. Even in a passing league he's still done some remarkable things others haven't.

In 2013, Dalton ranked 8th in the NFL in passing yards. Ranked 3rd in passing TDs. Set franchise record for passing TDs.


In 2012 he ranked 7th in the NFL in passing TDs. 3rd in the AFC.

Andy Dalton is one of two QBs in NFL history to have thrown over 3,000 yards in his first 5 seasons. The other is Peyton Manning.

Also had 18,000 yards in his first 5 seasons.

In 2015, even though it was cut short, Dalton ranked 28th all time with best QB rating in a season. 8 of his 12 games he had above a 100 QB rating. Sure, you can throw in his game against Pitt at the end but that's hardly fair.

Dalton is just barely behind Drew Brees and Peyton Manning with the most passing TDs within their first 5 years.

Dalton also has the most road wins within his first 5 seasons in the NFL with 25 road wins. 3 more than both Big Ben and Matt Ryan. And he didn't even play the rest of the 2015 season.

I agree that Dalton will have to do better to be considered the greatest Bengals QB. But let's not act like Dalton has done absolutely nothing. Let's be honest. How many people thought we'd make the playoffs in 2011? Some even questioned about 2012.

People were talking about if we should draft Luck after 2011 before the season even started.

[Brownshoe]

(06-04-2016, 02:42 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: 1. Yes you can compare players from different eras. But I only compared them to their peers, not each other. I'm comparing Dalton to how Matt Ryan and Cam Newton played, not how Boomer played years ago. That's the difference. That's how to tell who's done well because you compare them to other players in that era.

2. Back then there were only 14 teams in the conference. So they added more teams meaning more playoff spots. Plus it would have only added 2 more times where Anderson would have made the playoffs if they had a 6 playoff team system. Boomer would have made it to the playoffs only 3 times if they added the 6 team playoff system they have now. So Dalton STILL made the playoffs more than Boomer.

3. How so? They had a top 15 defense from 1987-1989. Top 10 in 1987. Same with the Bengals from 2011-2013. Then it 2014 they had a drop off as well.
Had a top 11 defense from 1974-76. Then again in 1978. Then again in 1980. #1 defense in 1983. So in 6 of Anderson's 15 year career, the defense was in the top 10.
Well, 13 years of him actually starting. So almost half the time he had a top 10 offense as a starting QB.

Yes, Anderson was voted as MVP. But it's not like he won MVP in his first few years. Took him until he was 32 years old to win MVP.

And you can compare Dalton to his peers lately as well. Even in a passing league he's still done some remarkable things others haven't.

In 2013, Dalton ranked 8th in the NFL in passing yards. Ranked 3rd in passing TDs. Set franchise record for passing TDs.


In 2012 he ranked 7th in the NFL in passing TDs. 3rd in the AFC.

Andy Dalton is one of two QBs in NFL history to have thrown over 3,000 yards in his first 5 seasons. The other is Peyton Manning.

Also had 18,000 yards in his first 5 seasons.

In 2015, even though it was cut short, Dalton ranked 28th all time with best QB rating in a season. 8 of his 12 games he had above a 100 QB rating. Sure, you can throw in his game against Pitt at the end but that's hardly fair.

Dalton is just barely behind Drew Brees and Peyton Manning with the most passing TDs within their first 5 years.

Dalton also has the most road wins within his first 5 seasons in the NFL with 25 road wins. 3 more than both Big Ben and Matt Ryan. And he didn't even play the rest of the 2015 season.

I agree that Dalton will have to do better to be considered the greatest Bengals QB. But let's not act like Dalton has done absolutely nothing. Let's be honest. How many people thought we'd make the playoffs in 2011? Some even questioned about 2012.

People were talking about if we should draft Luck after 2011 before the season even started.

In 2013 Dalton was 7th in passing yards, not 8th. Carson Palmer was 8th.

[BengalChris]

You guys are for the birds. Ryan and Newton? Not sure why you can't include all the current QBs and ones with SB wins.

Can he earn the title of best ever Bengals QB? YES, but he hasn't done it yet.

Is it possible for him to earn it his year? Yes. I do believe he could. But it would have to include a SB run.

[Essex Johnson]

(06-03-2016, 08:03 AM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't see this at all, if you use wins and losses as you gotta consider the playoffs as the standard bearer as those are against the top teams of the day. And setting a worse ever record eliminates the status right there.

Not sure how anyone could compare 2010 with the start of the 90's and not have the 90's give them a headache. One was a team on the rise while the other was a team going over a cliff.

Why limit the QBs you compare Dalton to those who came in the last 5 years? Too cherry picky. He's yet to challenge for a top 5 spot. Maybe he will this year with Manning retired.

I believe Dalton will overtake Boomer. I hope he overtakes Anderson. But I'm unwilling to grant him that status until he actually earns it.

Im not cherry picking, I am comparing him with the peers he came in with... but I have no problem putting him with Flacco, Ryan and Romo of the last few years... which is good company.  As you stated QB's today throw a bit more from the 70s.. but as much as I love Anderson, he still was a step below Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Foust of his era just as Dalton is behind the greats of his era at this time, but we are only 5 years in.. I feel we need 10 years of Dalton career to really see where Dalton falls against Anderson 

[wolfkaosaun]

(06-04-2016, 05:37 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You guys are for the birds. Ryan and Newton? Not sure why you can't include all the current QBs and ones with SB wins.

Can he earn the title of best ever Bengals QB? YES, but he hasn't done it yet.

Is it possible for him to earn it his year? Yes. I do believe he could. But it would have to include a SB run.

Because I'm not going to name every single QB. And I'm sorry, but Newton made it to the Super Bowl and won MVP. Something that both Anderson and Boomer have done.

And I did include Dalton in comparing him to Big Ben, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning.

You can even compare Dalton to Flacco.

The ONLY other QBs left that have won a Super Bowl are Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Big Ben.

And no, he hasn't earned it yet. But it also took Anderson 10 years just to win a playoff game.

I'm showing that Dalton has proven that he has every chance to be the greatest Bengals QB. Wins AND stats both prove that.

[TecmoBengals]

Sorry in advance if it is frowned upon to bump an old thread. Dalton's time with the Bengals is likely over. I wanted to see where he ended up ranking with the franchise in categories I listed in the first post of the thread.

Throughout the thread, many users discussed, "If Dalton wins a Super Bowl..." Well, we now know that didn't help.

Dalton ranks 1st for completions.
1. Dalton - 2757
2. Anderson – 2654
3. Palmer – 2024
4. Boomer – 2015

Dalton ranks 2nd in yards thrown:
1. Anderson – 32838
2. Dalton - 31,594
3. Boomer – 27149
4. Palmer – 22694

Dalton ranks 1st for TDs:
1. Dalton - 204
2. Anderson – 197
3. Boomer – 187
4. Palmer – 154

One day, I hope we settle the best QB discussion ever as "Burrow" after he wins us two Super Bowls and breaks all franchise passing records.

[BengalChris]

(05-29-2016, 06:15 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I believe most would agree the main Bengals franchise QBs throughout the organization’s history are Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Carson Palmer, and Andy Dalton.  The four QBs rank in the top four for franchise history in games played by a Bengals QB:  Anderson – 192, Boomer – 134, Palmer – 97, and Dalton – 77.

My question for the forum posters, if Dalton continues to play long enough and passes Palmer in games and then reaches total games played similar to Boomer and Anderson, does it make him the best Bengals QB ever?  Dalton does play in the modern-pass friendly QB league, but he is in contention to break all-time Bengal QB records.  A small sample of stats:

Dalton ranks 4th for completions:
1. Anderson – 2654
2. Palmer – 2024
3. Boomer – 2015
4. Dalton – 1556

Dalton ranks 4th in yards thrown:
1. Anderson – 32838
2. Boomer – 27149
3. Palmer – 22694
4. Dalton – 18008

Dalton ranks 4th for TDs:
1. Anderson – 197
2. Boomer – 187
3. Palmer – 154
4. Dalton 124

I understand there are other statistics to consider, season win totals, Pro Bowls, MVP awards, trips to playoffs, playoff wins, Super Bowl appearances, and other factors to consider when determining who is the best all-time Bengals QB.

If Andy Dalton has longevity as a Bengals QB does he have a case for being the Bengals all-time franchise, best QB over Anderson, Boomer, and Palmer?

You cannot compare passing numbers in 4 different eras and have some valid comparison.

Kenny Anderson's era started off with only 4 teams making the playoffs each year. In Dalton's era that would mean Dalton would have started 1 post season game. In the other 4 playoff appearances, the team was the 6th seed 3 times and Dalton was injured and would not have played.

Anderson had passing titles. Dalton was never close to one.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(03-17-2020, 12:57 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You cannot compare passing numbers in 4 different eras and have some valid comparison.

Kenny Anderson's era started off with only 4 teams making the playoffs each year. In Dalton's era that would mean Dalton would have started 1 post season game. In the other 4 playoff appearances, the team was the 6th seed 3 times and Dalton was injured and would not have played.

Anderson had passing titles. Dalton was never close to one.

 

Why don't you read the post, literally ABOVE yours?

He was just doing a numbers comparison and even said back in 2016, that he would need to sniff success or leaderboards to overtake Anderson.

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2020, 12:50 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: One day, I hope we settle the best QB discussion ever as "Burrow" after he wins us two Super Bowls and breaks all franchise passing records.

If Burrow doesn't lead the franchise passing records then either the NFL had a major rules shift, or something went terribly wrong.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(05-29-2016, 06:15 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: I believe most would agree the main Bengals franchise QBs throughout the organization’s history are Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Carson Palmer, and Andy Dalton.  The four QBs rank in the top four for franchise history in games played by a Bengals QB:  Anderson – 192, Boomer – 134, Palmer – 97, and Dalton – 77.

My question for the forum posters, if Dalton continues to play long enough and passes Palmer in games and then reaches total games played similar to Boomer and Anderson, does it make him the best Bengals QB ever?  Dalton does play in the modern-pass friendly QB league, but he is in contention to break all-time Bengal QB records.  A small sample of stats:

Dalton ranks 4th for completions:
1. Anderson – 2654
2. Palmer – 2024
3. Boomer – 2015
4. Dalton – 1556

Dalton ranks 4th in yards thrown:
1. Anderson – 32838
2. Boomer – 27149
3. Palmer – 22694
4. Dalton – 18008

Dalton ranks 4th for TDs:
1. Anderson – 197
2. Boomer – 187
3. Palmer – 154
4. Dalton 124

I understand there are other statistics to consider, season win totals, Pro Bowls, MVP awards, trips to playoffs, playoff wins, Super Bowl appearances, and other factors to consider when determining who is the best all-time Bengals QB.

If Andy Dalton has longevity as a Bengals QB does he have a case for being the Bengals all-time franchise, best QB over Anderson, Boomer, and Palmer?

This is a very interesting post with respect to statistics!  I looked at these numbers for awhile and I did a statistical analysis myself based on per game performance and the results were somewhat surprising.  Except for touchdowns per game I rounded to the nearest whole number.

Completions Per Game

1. Palmer 21
2. Dalton 20
3. Boomer 15
4. Anderson 14

Yards Per Game

1. Dalton 234
1. Palmer 234
3. Boomer 202
4. Anderson 171

Touchdowns Per Game

1. Dalton 1.61
2. Palmer 1.59
3. Boomer 1.40
4. Anderson 1.03

Do these numbers surprise you?  They certainly surprised me!

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2020, 01:50 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Do these numbers surprise you?  They certainly surprised me!

Nah, any passing numbers are going to go up between the 80s and now.  Stats-wise Ken Anderson's 1981 MVP season would net him something like the 10th ranked QB or so in 2019.  Context is everything on stuff like this, so I get it.  

The short of it is, if you are a franchise with passing stats that have stood for 20+ years there is a good chance you've been in QB hell for a long time. For example, the Chicago Bears still have single season passing records in yards and TDs held by Erik Kramer from 1995. That's brutal.

[TecmoBengals]

(03-17-2020, 01:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Nah, any passing numbers are going to go up between the 80s and now.  Stats-wise Ken Anderson's 1981 MVP season would net him something like the 10th ranked QB or so in 2019.  Context is everything on stuff like this, so I get it.  

Agreed, context is everything and it is safe to say players performed their craft in different passing eras as posted.  I think it is still interesting to compare the talents and their numbers.

My eye test loves Palmer, but historically I'd probably put Anderson as the best Bengals QB even if Dalton is the overall franchise lead in many categories.

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2020, 02:05 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Agreed, context is everything and it is safe to say players performed their craft in different passing eras as posted.  I think it is still interesting to compare the talents and their numbers.

My eye test loves Palmer, but historically I'd probably put Anderson as the best Bengals QB even if Dalton is the overall franchise lead in many categories.

If you compare them to the field relative to their era it helps.  We had Andesron and Boomer each get MVP once and Palmer and Dalton each get "if you squint and XYZ woulda happened they coulda maybe been MVP" once.  So that is a telling stat, there.  Overall, we have had some decent QBs so I'll take it.

[TecmoBengals]

(03-17-2020, 02:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you compare them to the field relative to their era it helps.  We had Andesron and Boomer each get MVP once and Palmer and Dalton each get "if you squint and XYZ woulda happened they coulda maybe been MVP" once.  So that is a telling stat, there.  Overall, we have had some decent QBs so I'll take it.

Another good and fair point, the Bengals might not have a Super Bowl win, but we've had decent QBs and for a fairly long period of time.  The Boomer to Palmer transition had some bumps along the way.  Although, I did enjoy watching Blake for some games.