McCarron hype gaining steam

[t3r3e3]

(07-03-2015, 10:56 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Same (almost) level of competition, have to believe it's the mental aspect.  And of course coaching.  Lewislized....lol

The competition level jump from college to the NFL is huge. Nearly everyone on an NFL roster was, at worst, one of the best 4-5 players on their college team, and most were the best. There's also the rules package differences (eg. Tighter hash marks, PI, longer seasons) that make the game tougher overall. But you are right in that the mental aspect is huge, as is coaching. My personal opinion is that the Bengals are hindered by the FO loyalty to certain position coaches and by not allowing the head coach to assemble the entirety of his staff. And Marvin's record in the most crucial games is not even a debate.

[t3r3e3]

(07-04-2015, 07:44 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Dalton is like an early on Drew Brees. Look at Brees' games in the beginning of his career. He makes a ton of mistakes and throws like Dalton makes. Dalton can be just as good as Brees became. But he can also throw as many turnovers as Brees has.

That's a major reach. Dalton has never displayed the accuracy or pocket presence of Brees. Even last season Brees in San Diego for that matter. The other problem with that assertion is Sean Payton isn't coming in to craft the Bengals offense.

[CornerBlitz]

(07-04-2015, 10:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So, wait, are you finally agreeing that the whole team has played poorly in the playoffs, and not just Dalton?>

What is your explanation for this ole wise one?  You like to dish out your observation that Dalton is the one and only reason the bengals have lost a playoff game but give absolutely no rationale why other than he is a bad player.  So I assume your same logic applies to every other player on the bengals, correct?  So there is your answer.  the entire team lacks what it takes to play well in the playoffs.

I've always maintained that the team in general does not perform well under the bright lights. That isn't even debatable. I think much of that has to do with Lewis which is the reason why I want him out of here. If you give a coach 15 years and he hasn't won a playoff game I think it's time to hit the road.  

And quit acting as if I think Dalton is the ONLY reason we have lost in the playoffs. I think as far as players he shares the majority of the blame....that isn't even debatable. He's the QB and he plays like a clown.  

I'm still waiting for my answer regarding why you think Andy Dalton plays like a bum in the playoffs............

[CornerBlitz]

As far as why I want Marvin gone, it's simple. He's a mediocre coach that can't get this team over the hump in the playoffs. Same reason why I want Dalton gone. He's a mediocre QB that can't get this team over the hump in the playoffs. I'm about winning the Super Bowl fellas and I don't believe that Dalton or Lewis are the caliber coach/QB that can take us to that level.

I've repeated this over and over again. Some of you put the blame squarely on Marvin while I think the blame is more or less put on the both of these clowns.

It is impossible debating with some of you regarding this because under no circumstance will you put any blame on Dalton because Marvin is the coach. That is the reason why this debate is pointless !!!!!

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 12:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually pretty much every national expert I have seen ranks Dalton about the same way as most people here.  He is in the group from about 12 to 20 that can be shuffled up in any order.  He is a solid, proven starting QB.

There are a few extremists that say he is either elite or total garbage, but most people have him ranked solidly in the middle of the pack.

The only real difference is that many people here think that QBs ranked in the top 20 are easy to replace, while the rest of the NFL realizes that they are very rare and valuable.  That is why they get paid $15+ plus per year and are given long term deals.

That's a fair assessment in a lot of ways, Fred. I see him in the 15-20 range depending on what someone likes.

I don't think he's garbage in general. Just that he has played that way in 3 playoff games. This past year is totally not fair to count. I also think he has such a swing in performances, even in the regular season, that it is tough to watch sometimes and absolutely nerve wracking.

I am interested to see McCarron progress through the preseason this year and next to see how he grows. IMO, no matter how good the rest of the team is, a QB in the bottom half of the league is not going to win a championship. The Bengals are talented enough everywhere else to contend. I hope AD grows this preseason and is ready to step into that top 10 consistent QB area.

To play on the Lou Holtz quote.: AD doesn't have to be the best QB in the world... he just has to be the best QB on the field for about an hour.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 11:53 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I would like to take a crack at these....

- QB's performance is not solely just effecting the WR/TEs and their stats. Other things go on in-game that the QB is in control of that influence the running game as well.
- ADs 7+ turnovers in 4 games ABSOLUTELY effects the defense.
- The first two playoff games are irrelevant to AD's performances or the team's results.
- Those blaming the coach's poor performances from the 2005-2010 seasons need to stop living in the past. Marvin Lewis, and his staff, has become much better since the reboot in 2011 at game management, etc. Jay Gruden did have a silly game plan in that first game against the Texans to go away from the Bengals best player, but the on field performances are what the biggest problem was.
- No one within reason should be calling for Marvin Lewis' head in 2015. He is a much better coach than the 2010 version that should have been run out of town.
- No one should be blamed anyone on the Bengals for the Playoff loss to the Colts.
- AD was AWFUL... not just bad... AWFUL in the 3 previous playoff games. Anyone surprised by this at this point hasn't been watching with open eyes. He's a streaky player and as inconsistent as the weather. Period.
- What about 8 seasons of prime time choking? AGAIN, the coaching staff and team as a whole has been MUCH improved from 2011-present so that can't be laid on or off of them completely.
- Why can't the QB bail out the D when it matters most? Or turn around a tough first quarter? He hasn't shown the ability to when the pressure is on. Period.

- Bottom line for me: The team has all of the pieces to be successful, but has primarily lost in the playoffs because of an imbalance in talent/performances at the QB position. Since 2012 the Bengals have had one of the top 10 most talented rosters in the NFL. AD has squandered those years with terrible showings at the end of the seasons. The moxie and skillset that AJ McCarron brings has me excited for the future should AD bomb out again. I've seen this movie too many times before so I'm not placing any bets.

AD isn't complete trash. He has the ability to do well and be a key component of the team's success. For those having faith in him, that's a nice positive outlook. For those ready to look elsewhere, I understand that, too. It's the same thing I thought about Marvin for years... He CAN, but he DOESN'T. A players window isn't opened as large as a coach's.

The QB hasn't effected the defense to the point a lot of people would claim. The defense has been terribad enough, all on its own.

AJ McC has zero moxie and skill set when it comes to NFL play, so don't bank too much on that yet.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-04-2015, 12:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2012 we played them with a playoff spot on the line and beat them.

Ok Fred that's 2 YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Now I know we're gonna win all dem Super Bowls. Bring em on folks this season we're gonna kick ass and take names !

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 02:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The QB hasn't effected the defense to the point a lot of people would claim. The defense has been terribad enough, all on its own.

AJ McC has zero moxie and skill set when it comes to NFL play, so don't bank too much on that yet.

- The turnovers and poor field position have most certainly effected the defense. To just look at AD's performances in those games in a vacuum is short sighted. There is a bigger picture when it comes to QB play and how it effects the game than just TDs and yards.

- Your second point strikes me as circular logic. No one coming into the NFL has exhibited anything in NFL play, but that doesn't stop teams from recognizing good players and putting those players into a position to be successful. Russel Wilson is a fine example of a player coming in with zero NFL experience and being an instant winner and beating out NFL vets. How much NFL experience in real games did Tom Brady have? He didn't prove anything before winning a Superbowl. I can make a long list of QBs in the modern era who came in and were successful without having that magical NFL experience. So to be afraid of that or stand on it as a basis of McCarron not possibly being ready doesn't hold water to me.

[fredtoast]

(07-04-2015, 03:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - The turnovers and poor field position have most certainly effected the defense. To just look at AD's performances in those games in a vacuum is short sighted.

To look at stats without watching the games is even more short sighted.  In playoff games the Bengals defense has look bad even when they were not playing a short field due to turnovers.  They have look bad even when the Bengals had more time of possession than the opponent.  

To just make a blanket statement that the defense has played poorly because of Dalton is ridiculous.

[fredtoast]

(07-04-2015, 02:16 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Ok Fred that's 2 YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Now I know we're gonna win all dem Super Bowls. Bring em on folks this season we're gonna kick ass and take names !

We'll never beat the Stealers when it matters because we have never done it before except when we did do it.

Derp.

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To look at stats without watching the games is even more short sighted.  In playoff games the Bengals defense has look bad even when they were not playing a short field due to turnovers.  They have look bad even when the Bengals had more time of possession than the opponent.  

To just make a blanket statement that the defense has played poorly because of Dalton is ridiculous.I

I didn't make a blanket statement saying AD was the only reason the D gave up points. AD has turned the ball over 7+ times in 4 games. That is awful and completely hangs the D out to dry. The Chargers game I was actually there. It was a debacle from the QB spot. From there the Bengals never had a chance.

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 04:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We'll never beat the Stealers when it matters because we have never done it before except when we did do it.

Derp.

That's the same logic the guys who say AJ McCarron doesn't have NFL experience so he can't be any good use.

Oh, and AD is 2-6 against the Steelers. You're beating the wrong drum there.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 03:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - The turnovers and poor field position have most certainly effected the defense. To just look at AD's performances in those games in a vacuum is short sighted. There is a bigger picture when it comes to QB play and how it effects the game than just TDs and yards.

- Your second point strikes me as circular logic. No one coming into the NFL has exhibited anything in NFL play, but that doesn't stop teams from recognizing good players and putting those players into a position to be successful. Russel Wilson is a fine example of a player coming in with zero NFL experience and being an instant winner and beating out NFL vets. How much NFL experience in real games did Tom Brady have? He didn't prove anything before winning a Superbowl. I can make a long list of QBs in the modern era who came in and were successful without having that magical NFL experience. So to be afraid of that or stand on it as a basis of McCarron not possibly being ready doesn't hold water to me.

-Turnovers haven't effected the defense as much as has been claimed. Continued turnovers on a short field might, but a solid defense (which the Bengals have had) could off-set that, as proven by the Green Bay game in '13. Also, turnovers wouldn't lead to such a disparity in rushing yards or a lack of disparity in first downs and time of possession. Bad defensive play, overall, has lead to bad defensive play. Hell, 2 of the 4 playoff games were a wash in terms of turnovers; Houston v2 and Indy. That leaves Houston v1 and SD where the 3 and 4 turnover differential still left each team with an equal TOP.

A lack of pressure on the QB, failure to stop the run and an inability to create turnovers have lead to bad defensive performances in all 4 games. 

-I'd call it deductive logic as opposed to circular logic. No QBs come into the league with either of those, but QBs are drafted with expectations. You wouldn't compare Peyton Manning to AJ McCarron because of the expectation and draft position of each. To hope for great things from a 5th round QB who was on a talent-laden team with many NFL draftees isn't wise. If he's able to come in and be a top 12 QB, he'd be the exception rather than the norm. Russell Wilson, while being an exception, was still a 3rd round pick that showed definite mobility as well as ability. Tom Brady is the biggest outlier there is. With the Bengals record of ability and luck in drafting, what are their chances of getting a Tom Brady type? I'd say about zero. If we were talking about a laundry list of 'what could have been', i'd say their chances were great. Definitely not with the Montana, Brady luck though.

[PDub80]

(07-04-2015, 04:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: -Turnovers haven't effected the defense as much as has been claimed. Continued turnovers on a short field might, but a solid defense (which the Bengals have had) could off-set that, as proven by the Green Bay game in '13. Also, turnovers wouldn't lead to such a disparity in rushing yards or a lack of disparity in first downs and time of possession. Bad defensive play, overall, has lead to bad defensive play. Hell, 2 of the 4 playoff games were a wash in terms of turnovers; Houston v2 and Indy. That leaves Houston v1 and SD where the 3 and 4 turnover differential still left each team with an equal TOP.

A lack of pressure on the QB, failure to stop the run and an inability to create turnovers have lead to bad defensive performances in all 4 games. 

-I'd call it deductive logic as opposed to circular logic. No QBs come into the league with either of those, but QBs are drafted with expectations. You wouldn't compare Peyton Manning to AJ McCarron because of the expectation and draft position of each. To hope for great things from a 5th round QB who was on a talent-laden team with many NFL draftees isn't wise. If he's able to come in and be a top 12 QB, he'd be the exception rather than the norm. Russell Wilson, while being an exception, was still a 3rd round pick that showed definite mobility as well as ability. Tom Brady is the biggest outlier there is. With the Bengals record of ability and luck in drafting, what are their chances of getting a Tom Brady type? I'd say about zero. If we were talking about a laundry list of 'what could have been', i'd say their chances were great. Definitely not with the Montana, Brady luck though.

- Somewhere Jeff Rowe and Casey Bramlet have hurt feelings right now.

- I appreciate the stats you put up and the work it takes to find stuff like that. Looking at them is depressing on several levels.

- The other team will have a shorter time of possession if they are scoring fast and the Bengals are doing their typical grind it out. I can't see that as any sort of indicator of anything. We would have to look at some other info to determine effects of the turn overs.

The team that wins the turnover battle wins the game more often than not. THAT was my point. It's a tough thing to come back from.

I get your point on not hanging my hat on a 5th round QB. However, guys fall for different reasons. AJ McCArron was projected as a 2nd to 3rd rounder. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/aj-mccarron?id=2543497  My point with AJ is that even if his skill set is more similar to AD than not, he's a winner at the highest level in college and has a totally different attitude and personality that I think might be better suited for this team. I am interested in seeing him this preseason and if he shines or if it's Armon Binns like hype they are throwing on him. Either way, I want anyone on the Bengals to succeed so that we can enjoy them as long as possible every season.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-04-2015, 04:38 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Somewhere Jeff Rowe and Casey Bramlet have hurt feelings right now.

- I appreciate the stats you put up and the work it takes to find stuff like that. Looking at them is depressing on several levels.

- The other team will have a shorter time of possession if they are scoring fast and the Bengals are doing their typical grind it out. I can't see that as any sort of indicator of anything. We would have to look at some other info to determine effects of the turn overs.

The team that wins the turnover battle wins the game more often than not. THAT was my point. It's a tough thing to come back from.

I get your point on not hanging my hat on a 5th round QB. However, guys fall for different reasons. AJ McCArron was projected as a 2nd to 3rd rounder. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/aj-mccarron?id=2543497  My point with AJ is that even if his skill set is more similar to AD than not, he's a winner at the highest level in college and has a totally different attitude and personality that I think might be better suited for this team. I am interested in seeing him this preseason and if he shines or if it's Armon Binns like hype they are throwing on him. Either way, I want anyone on the Bengals to succeed so that we can enjoy them as long as possible every season.

The really sad thing is, the Bengals have lost playoff games in every way imaginable. Think about it. The only solid 30 consecutive minutes of playoff football was the 1st half of the Chargers game.  :angry:

And i agree with your last line. I'm all for that as well.

[Hammerthis]

(07-04-2015, 07:42 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Why would I believe that? He couldn't beat the Steelrs to get into the playoffs. Couldn't beat the Jets in the playoffs.

He went 4-6 against the Steelers here.

In 06 he lost to the Colts, Broncos, and Steelers. All teams he would have played in the playoffs in 05. He's NEVER beaten the Broncos and only won against the Colts once. Has a record of 1-8 against both teams. He has never beaten Peyton Manning on any team he's been on. Went 2-3 against playoff teams in 05.

So no. I don't believe that. Palmer had chances to get this team over the top, and never did. In 06 he had 3 chances to make it to the playoffs, didn't get it done. Never made the clutch play in the big game. Plus, his primetime numbers are pretty similar to Dalton's.

"While Carson Palmer was at the helm, he completed 224 passes out of 404 attempts (55.5%) for 2,385 yards, 12 touchdowns, and eight interceptions. Carson Palmer had a quarterback rating of 74.5 in primetime (excluding the Steelers and Jets playoff games)..."
If you want to read how Marvin Lewis' quarterbacks have done in Cincinnati and after, check out this: http://stripehype.com/2014/11/14/marvin-lewis-quarterbacks-primetime/

In case you want the playoff numbers as well, Palmer completed 243 passes out of 441 attempts (55.1%) for 2,597 yards, 13 touchdowns, and nine interceptions. A quarterback rating of 73.9.

So no. I have zero reason to believe he would have won "at least two" playoff games. he came back after the 05 season. Played well, went strong, and couldn't win big games when they needed him to. And don't try to blame the injury, he became his normal self after that and played at a high level afterwards.

IMO anyone seriously thinking Andy is on par with Carson, does so out of biase. Therefore, I'll be brief. Carson didn't have a #1 ranked pass protection OL, nor a great defense. He had two good WRs.
Andy has 1st round draft talent all around him, good grief man! The players on our team make Andy better, Carson makes his teammates better.

[Brownshoe]

(07-04-2015, 06:25 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: IMO anyone seriously thinking Andy is on par with Carson, does so out of biase. Therefore, I'll be brief. Carson didn't have a #1 ranked pass protection OL, nor a great defense. He had two good WRs.
Andy has 1st round draft talent all around him, good grief man! The players on our team make Andy better, Carson makes his teammates better.

Carson had just as good of an OL, and he had a good running game most of his career. Dalton hasn't had near the offensive talent around him, and that great defense/OL you like to mention plays like crap in the playoffs.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-04-2015, 06:25 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: IMO anyone seriously thinking Andy is on par with Carson, does so out of biase. Therefore, I'll be brief. Carson didn't have a #1 ranked pass protection OL, nor a great defense. He had two good WRs.
Andy has 1st round draft talent all around him, good grief man! The players on our team make Andy better, Carson makes his teammates better.

Outside of AJ, the talent around Dalton has all been on paper. 
Has anyone had a full healthy year? 
Has Eifert, MJ or Sanu been anything other than hype and one year wonders? 

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2015, 07:08 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Outside of AJ, the talent around Dalton has all been on paper. 
Has anyone had a full healthy year? 
Has Eifert, MJ or Sanu been anything other than hype and one year wonders? 

Jermaine Gresham?

[Stormborn]

(07-04-2015, 07:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Jermaine Gresham?

Well... he has been healthy.