If GM holding Marvin back, then why has Marvin never left to a better Opportunity/GM?

[depthchart]

(11-26-2018, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If I answer these questions you have to answer mine.  Don't you think that is fair.


1.  No, I don't think he has never lost with more talent, but he has never had the best roster in the league either.  And when he does have a talented roster it is because he and his staff have had to bust their asses coaching up lesser players.  Mike Brown has never given him any top level free agent talent like all other coaches get from time to time so it has all been on Marvin to build those rosters.

2.  No, Mike Brown does not cause Marvin to lose when Marvin had more talent.  The question is "how often does that happen?"

Now answer my question

Why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Brown's money for better Free Agents to win more games ?

Mike Brown just spent big money "retaining" Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap.

He impacted the Free Agent Market of the near future by preventing his own players from hitting that Market, by "retaining" them.

Jim Owczraski showed that the Bengals have spent in the Top third of the NFL during a number of Marvin's seasons.

You claim in Post 71 that the "Front Office" is still the "worst" in the NFL. Then you name players like Terrance Newman, Reggie Nelson, Adam Jones, Cedric Benson, Kyle Cook that have all contributed well. You attribute this to Marvin's Coaching yet do not give any credit to the "Front Office" for recognizing the potential of these players.

The Bengal Front Office of the 1990's was the worst of it's day. The "Front Office" during Marvin's tenure has not been "the worst" in each and every Marvin season. They have fielded a number of competitive Rosters.

Just compare Rosters of all 32 teams each Marvin year and you will NOT see the Bengals as the 32nd ranked Roster every year giving Marvin no chance. The "Front Office" clearly outperformed many other NFL Front Offices in many Marvin Era seasons. Not number one overall but definitely not 32nd overall & getting PRAISE in a number of seasons for their Rosters by NFL Analysts.

You yourself seemed to Praise recent Draft picks or trading for Cordy Glenn etc if my memory serves me right.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Marvin is a Major Part of that "Front Office" as proven by Mike's improvement as a GM from the 1990's versus the Marvin Era.

Sure Marvin may want that extra High Priced Free Agent to be squeezed into the Budget but I suspect that one extra guy or two may not be enough to overcome what Marvin may actually LACK as a Head Coach.

Many Coaches enter games without an AJ Green caliber receiver. An example of a Roster edge Marvin has had during many games.

You want to pretend that there is a GREAT DISPARITY in Rosters favoring other Coaches Marvin faces which is preventing Marvin's Greatness from ever surfacing and I say, B. S.

Marvin's entered plenty of games & even seasons with Rosters that were at least equal to or possibly even better than many other Coaches had to work with. Many Front Offices spend years just trying to give their Head Coach a QB for goodness sake.

Marvin's had QBs Carson & Andy from his Front Office, not bad. 

Probably even a Roster advantage at QB over many teams all of these years, huh Fred.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 04:05 PM)depthchart Wrote: What you fail to acknowledge is that Marvin is a Major Part of that "Front Office" as proven by Mike's improvement as a GM from the 1990's versus the Marvin Era.

What you fail to acknowledge is that Mike did not change at all.  He still signed low level cheap free agents.  The only difference was that Marvin and his staff were better at coaching and got more from the same level of signings.

If getting good performances out of cheap signings had anything to do with "seeing the potential" then it would have happened under other coaches.  But it didn't.  NOTHING about the level of free agents signed changed.  Therefore the "front office" deserves NO CREDIT for the improvement.  The only difference was better coaching.

And you still have refused to answer my question.  I was man enough to answer your so please answer mine.  Since you say Marvin is part of the "front office" then you are claiming that Marvin refused to do anything for the O-line except trade for Glenn, and draft Price. Soooooo. . . . .

Why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Brown's money for better Free Agents to win more games?

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 04:05 PM)depthchart Wrote: You want to pretend that there is a GREAT DISPARITY in Rosters favoring other Coaches Marvin faces which is preventing Marvin's Greatness from ever surfacing and I say, B. S.

No I don't.  If there was a GREAT DISPARITY then Marvin would never had had the success that he has, but when it comes to winning playoff games and championships just one or two players can make a big difference.

[Bengalholic]

(11-26-2018, 04:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I don't.  If there was a GREAT DISPARITY then Marvin would never had had the success that he has, but when it comes to winning playoff games and championships just one or two players can make a big difference.

Would you agree that the underdog sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the road team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the less healthy team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the less talented team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that teams sometimes overcome obstacles to win a playoff game?

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

[Shake n Blake]

Fredtoast on 11/4/2018:

Quote:fredtoast Wrote:

When one player underperforms it is a player issue, when every player underperforms then it is a coaching problem.

What have our players done in the playoffs?

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 04:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Would you agree that the underdog sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the road team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the less healthy team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that the less talented team sometimes wins a playoff game?

Would you agree that teams sometimes overcome obstacles to win a playoff game?

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.

Would you agree that Mike Brown's free agent policy hurts the Bengals chances of winning playoff games and championships?

[depthchart]

(11-26-2018, 04:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What you fail to acknowledge is that Mike did not change at all.  He still signed low level cheap free agents.  The only difference was that Marvin and his staff were better at coaching and got more from the same level of signings.

If getting good performances out of cheap signings had anything to do with "seeing the potential" then it would have happened under other coaches.  But it didn't.  NOTHING about the level of free agents signed changed.  Therefore the "front office" deserves NO CREDIT for the improvement.  The only difference was better coaching.

And you still have refused to answer my question.  I was man enough to answer your so please answer mine.  Since you say Marvin is part of the "front office" then you are claiming that Marvin refused to do anything for the O-line except trade for Glenn, and draft Price. Soooooo. . . . .

Why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Brown's money for better Free Agents to win more games?

You imply that the Rosters of the 1990's were EXACTLY the same Caliber as those of Marvin's era, since Mike hasn't changed.

Just in QB decisions ALONE the Rosters were Greatly better in Marvin's era than the 1990's. Carson/ Dalton versus Akili & Company.

You want to PRETEND that all a GM does is sign Free Agents, while IGNORING the impact of Draft decisions such as the QB difference shown above.

I answered your question and in an earlier Post I said that Marvin does not have a total influence as part of the Front Office but a great enough influence to have Mike looking like a better GM than he was in the 1990's. Mike retains players by preventing players like Geno & Dunlap from becoming Free Agents. Maybe Mike should have let Geno & Dunlap become Free Agents & them sign them back just to make it clear to you that his retention of players altered a near future Free Agent Market.

Marvin does not get everything he may want but his influence in Front Office decisions can't be denied. You pretend he has no influence, yet Marvin Era Rosters are not the same low Caliber as the 1990's Rosters & you say Mike has not changed but I say Mike's GM decision making was changed & altered by Marvin's influence.

Every time one of Marvin's teams lines up across from another Head Coach's team; you see Marvin as a Victim who is Out Rostered before the game begins.

Meanwhile, other Coaches around the League work with an equal amount of talent whether you believe it or not or find ways to win with Key players out with injuries. Lose starting QB's and win Super Bowls with a backup, let excellent players leave via Free Agency yet keep their train rolling.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 05:08 PM)depthchart Wrote: Marvin does not get everything he may want but his influence in Front Office decisions can't be denied. You pretend he has no influence, yet Marvin Era Rosters are not the same low Caliber as the 1990's Rosters & you say Mike has not changed but I say Mike's GM decision making was changed & altered by Marvin's influence.

That is 100% false. Please show me how Mike has changed.  List all of the top free agents he has signed since Marvin became coach.

The only thing you have seen change is the RESULTS, and that has nothing to do with Mike Brown.  Marvin and his coaches get all the credit for that because they have been able to get better production from the EXACT SAME type of player Mike has always brought in.

Same with the drafts.  Better results because of better coaching.  

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 05:08 PM)depthchart Wrote: Meanwhile, other Coaches around the League work with an equal amount of talent whether you believe it or not or find ways to win with Key players out with injuries. 

let excellent players leave via Free Agency yet keep their train rolling.

More 100% BS.  These other coaches are able to win despite injuries because they their rosters were supplemented by at least one or two top level free agents.

Give me a list of all recent Super Bowl Champions that did not have at least ONE top level free agent signed from another team contributing at a high level.

[depthchart]

(11-26-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is 100% false. Please show me how Mike has changed.  List all of the top free agents he has signed since Marvin became coach.

The only thing you have seen change is the RESULTS, and that has nothing to do with Mike Brown.  Marvin and his coaches get all the credit for that because they have been able to get better production from the EXACT SAME type of player Mike has always brought in.

Same with the drafts.  Better results because of better coaching.  

A Roster is not made up of 100% Free Agents as you have tried to reduce this all to.

Rosters have improved since the 1990's in other ways to Marvin's benefit.

Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton are NOT the exact same type of player added to the Roster as Akili Smith & David Klingler.

Mike must have IMPROVED as a Drafter of Quarterbacks, huh Fred, or would Marvin have COACHED UP Akili & Klingler.  LOL

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 05:28 PM)depthchart Wrote: A Roster is not made up of 100% Free Agents as you have tried to reduce this all to.

I have never said anything like this.  IN fact I have also made it clear that are draft picks are performing better due to better coaching.

(11-26-2018, 05:28 PM)depthchart Wrote: Carson Palmer and Andy Dalton are NOT the exact same type of player added to the Roster as Akili Smith & David Klingler.

Mike must have IMPROVED as a Drafter of Quarterbacks, huh Fred, or would Marvin have COACHED UP Akili & Klingler.  LOL

How do you know what Marvin and his staff could have done with Klingler and Smith?  According to the experts both were higher rated prospects than Andy Dalton and look what the Bengals turned that second round pick into.

Now where is that list of top rated free agents Mike has signed since Marvin arrived to prove how much he has changed?  All I see is a change in the results from the same crappy "trash bin" signings.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never said anything like this.  IN fact I have also made it clear that are draft picks are performing better due to better coaching.



How do you know what Marvin and his staff could have done with Klingler and Smith?  According to the experts both were higher rated prospects than Andy Dalton and look what the Bengals turned that second round pick into.

Now where is that list of top rated free agents Mike has signed since Marvin arrived to prove how much he has changed?  All I see is a change in the results from the same crappy "trash bin" signings.

One of the reasons the 90's was so bad was we had a terrible offensive line. We also had a bad defense.

[Bengalholic]

(11-26-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is 100% false. Please show me how Mike has changed.  List all of the top free agents he has signed since Marvin became coach.

The only thing you have seen change is the RESULTS, and that has nothing to do with Mike Brown.  Marvin and his coaches get all the credit for that because they have been able to get better production from the EXACT SAME type of player Mike has always brought in.

Same with the drafts.  Better results because of better coaching.  

List all of the top free agents you know for a fact that Marvin wanted...because going after 'top free agents' seems to go against everything Marvin has ever said about his own approach to free agency.

If you look at 2003 and 2012 in particular, that would seem (based on his own statement about having a lot of input on signings) to be about the high water mark for Marvin's comfort level with free agent targets and activity. 

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 05:50 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: List all of the top free agents you know for a fact that Marvin wanted...because going after 'top free agents' seems to go against everything Marvin has ever said about his own approach to free agency.

Marvin brings in at least a few top players for interviews every year.  I can go look up the names if you don't believe me.

[depthchart]

(11-26-2018, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never said anything like this.  IN fact I have also made it clear that are draft picks are performing better due to better coaching.



How do you know what Marvin and his staff could have done with Klingler and Smith?  According to the experts both were higher rated prospects than Andy Dalton and look what the Bengals turned that second round pick into.

If, as you imply, Marvin would have turned Akili & Klingler into Studs if only Marvin had been there; then why complain about the players Marvin gets on a Roster.

He can turn Turds into Gold, so he should be able to turn any 53 man Roster (turds or not) into 53 Gold Nuggets by his mere presence alone.

Why complain about Rosters at all then, Fred ? 

Especially if those Rosters are just one or two players away as you imply.

Just let Marvin Coach them all up...

[SladeX]

Fred, there is no comparison to the rosters of the 90s. Mike let at least 10 starting players leave the team in the span of less than 2 years! My username on Bengals noards in those days was the last initial of each of them (adjssmpj or something). It got so long i ginally gave up. The roster was utterly devoid of nfl talent for years. The fact that Shula or coslett got any wins out of them must make them among the best of all time!

[SladeX]

Furthermore, the only starting caliber FA Brown brought in in the span of several years was Louis Oliver. He didn't pan out, and Mike didn't try again for a number of seasons after that. How many starters do we enlist via FA since Marvin arrived?

[Bengalholic]

(11-26-2018, 05:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Would you agree that Mike Brown's free agent policy hurts the Bengals chances of winning playoff games and championships?

Unlike you, I'll answer the question that was asked.

Like I said in others posts about this...if you say the talent was good enough to get them to the playoffs, then it seems dishonest to say the talent wasn't good enough to win a playoff game or two...which is why you didn't answer my questions. 

I've never been a fan of Mike not going after a top end FA or 2 to help make them even better as a team. However, read up on Marvin's opinions on signing top tier guys or free agency in general. It's pretty damn similar to Mike's. 

Overall, I think the organization has to change they way deal with free agency. If they ever do so, I think it could definitely help the cause.

(11-26-2018, 06:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin brings in at least a few top players for interviews every year.  I can go look up the names if you don't believe me.

Yes, show me all the top tier free agents that Marvin has brought in for interviews every year since 2003. 

[Whatever]

(11-26-2018, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never said anything like this.  IN fact I have also made it clear that are draft picks are performing better due to better coaching.



How do you know what Marvin and his staff could have done with Klingler and Smith?  According to the experts both were higher rated prospects than Andy Dalton and look what the Bengals turned that second round pick into.

Now where is that list of top rated free agents Mike has signed since Marvin arrived to prove how much he has changed?  All I see is a change in the results from the same crappy "trash bin" signings.

Marvin retained many offensive assistants when he took the job, including Brat who was also the OC with Akili.  To suggest that Marvin could have developed Smith is just silly.

[Whatever]

(11-26-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is 100% false. Please show me how Mike has changed.  List all of the top free agents he has signed since Marvin became coach.

The only thing you have seen change is the RESULTS, and that has nothing to do with Mike Brown.  Marvin and his coaches get all the credit for that because they have been able to get better production from the EXACT SAME type of player Mike has always brought in.

Same with the drafts.  Better results because of better coaching.  

Kevin Hardy
John Thornton
Tory James
Antwan Odom
Laverneous Coles
Antonio Bryant 
Sam Adams
Terrell Owens


Also, via trade he acquired

Cordy Glenn
Reggie Nelson
Deltha O'Neal