3-4 Defense?

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 06:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Burfict used to be "serviceable"?  C'mon man, he was a Super Destroyer.  Why would you take a swipe at a guy that's obviously going through some mental/emotional difficulties in his life?  Yeah, he's played very poorly of late, and likely should be released for the good of the team.  However, that is no reason to take shots at him and belittle all that he's done in the past for the team.

Edit: Weird freak out.

[*bfine32*]

(12-21-2018, 02:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Hubbard weighed 225 pounds as a high school safety. He's now at 270. Anyone know of a 270 pound LB playing in a 3-4? Are there any out there that big?

My UK Boyz come to mind

Bud Dupree

Za'Darius Smith

If we did go that route I'd like to take the other UK Boy

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Bengals can't even field 3 good LBs, so lets field 4? No thanks.

Finally found a decent DE in Hubbard to go opposite Dunlap, and now you want the 270lb Hubbard to play in coverage? That is a Atkins-dropping-into-coverage level of bad idea. All around the league LBs are getting smaller and faster to cover RBs and TEs, and here is 270lb Hubbard who didn't even run a 40 at the Combine. Pass. Hard pass.

Sign a good FA LB, and draft two more in the first four rounds. Nobody in the current group is worth keeping around. (Assuming we are calling Lawson a DE, not a LB.)

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 07:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bengals can't even field 3 good LBs, so lets field 4? No thanks.

Finally found a decent DE in Hubbard to go opposite Dunlap, and now you want the 270lb Hubbard to play in coverage? That is a Atkins-dropping-into-coverage level of bad idea. All around the league LBs are getting smaller and faster to cover RBs and TEs, and here is 270lb Hubbard who didn't even run a 40 at the Combine. Pass. Hard pass.

Sign a good FA LB, and draft two more in the first four rounds. Nobody in the current group is worth keeping around. (Assuming we are calling Lawson a DE, not a LB.)

All linebackers aren’t created equal when it comes to scheme.

No, not really Atkins esque at all. 3-4 OLB are anywhere from 245-270. They tend to not be asked to do what your inside guys get asked to to do. They do a lot of spot coverage with an occasional HB out the backfield. It’s why a lot of teams will draft DE from college to play as 3-4 OLB and same thing the other way.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-21-2018, 07:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bengals can't even field 3 good LBs, so lets field 4? No thanks.

Finally found a decent DE in Hubbard to go opposite Dunlap, and now you want the 270lb Hubbard to play in coverage? That is a Atkins-dropping-into-coverage level of bad idea. All around the league LBs are getting smaller and faster to cover RBs and TEs, and here is 270lb Hubbard who didn't even run a 40 at the Combine. Pass. Hard pass.

Sign a good FA LB, and draft two more in the first four rounds. Nobody in the current group is worth keeping around. (Assuming we are calling Lawson a DE, not a LB.)

Sorry, but I just can't get on board with that analysis.  First of all, at 6'5" a 270# man can still be athletic. Keeping in mind that Hubbard comes from an All-State Safety background.  That is not to say that a 6'1" 300# Geno Atkins isn't athletic, but hopefully you get my point.  Secondly, most ALL 3-4 defenses feature a LB that is more of a 4-3 style DE, who sets the edge, occasionally drops into coverage, and rushes the QB.  In a 3-4 defense, it's the inside backers that need to be quicker, and can be more compact than a traditional MIKE or WILL in a 4-3.

[*Synric*]

(12-21-2018, 07:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: All linebackers aren’t created equal when it comes to scheme.

No, not really Atkins esque at all. 3-4 OLB are anywhere from 245-270. They tend to not be asked to do what your inside guys get asked to to do. They do a lot of spot coverage with an occasional HB out the backfield. It’s why a lot of teams will draft DE from college to play as 3-4 OLB and same thing the other way.

Even Dunlap is athletic enough to play LOLB if they wanted to go Lawson Atkins Billings Glasgow Dunlap. Maybe even move him inside to the 5 tech on passing downs.

But what kinda 3-4 would you prefer the 2 gap linemen or that single gap 34 defense that Wade Phillips runs.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 07:58 PM)Synric Wrote: Even Dunlap is athletic enough to play LOLB if they wanted to go Lawson Atkins Billings Glasgow Dunlap. Maybe even move him inside to the 5 tech on passing downs.

But what kinda 3-4 would you prefer the 2 gap linemen or that single gap 34 defense that Wade Phillips runs.

I think single gap is the way to go when you transition from a 4-3 with a bunch of guys who never played in a 3-4.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-21-2018, 07:45 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sorry, but I just can't get on board with that analysis.  First of all, at 6'5" a 270# man can still be athletic.  Keeping in mind that Hubbard comes from an All-State Safety background.  That is not to say that a 6'1" 300# Geno Atkins isn't athletic, but hopefully you get my point.  Secondly, most ALL 3-4 defenses feature a LB that is more of a 4-3 style DE, who sets the edge, occasionally drops into coverage, and rushes the QB.  In a 3-4 defense, it's the inside backers that need to be quicker, and can be more compact than a traditional MIKE or WILL in a 4-3.

Except they did this already with Michael Johnson and it wasted 2.5 years of his career.

First he was a DE, then an OLB, then a DE, then an OLB, then Odom got hurt and he had to go back to DE.

The guy kept dropping and adding weight, and it took a full offseason of him preparing for nothing but DE to put on enough weight to be good. That's why his first two years were forgettable. They kept yo-yo-ing him back and forth.

Hubbard was drafted to be a 4-3 DE, he's practiced and trained to be a 4-3 DE. He's had good first success as a 4-3 DE his rookie year. Let him use the offseason to keep getting better. Not to drop 10-15 pounds and focus on being able to cover a guy.

Hubbard is like 50 pounds+ heavier than he was when he played safety.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-21-2018, 08:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except they did this already with Michael Johnson and it wasted 2.5 years of his career.

That is an Apples to Oranges comparison.  Was MJ an All-State Safety in HS?  Hell, if he could have caught the ball well, and had any real athleticism, he could have been the best TE or Power Forward in history..

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-21-2018, 08:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is an Apples to Oranges comparison.  Was MJ an All-State Safety in HS?  Hell, if he could have caught the ball well, and had any real athleticism, he could have been the best TE or Power Forward in history..

And Alex Erickson was an All-State DB in HS.

It doesn't mean I want Erickson filling in for Jesse Bates or William Jackson.



(Side Note: Ogbuehi was a 2x All-State OL in HS. In Texas. Almost like HS doesn't matter a ton in the NFL.)

[THE PISTONS]

(12-21-2018, 02:17 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's really not a bad idea. We do lack LBers. I've been a bit bewildered at why we don't at least try to force our opponents to make adjustments by switching between schemes during games. We'd have more talent on the field with what we have right now because we'd be taking a LB out of the picture by using Willis and Hubbard as rush backers. Fej could actually play a cover LB spot in a pinch.

They absolutely tried Fej at LB at times this year...and the defense was still really bad. They had Williams and Bates playing traditional safety.

The Saints game was one example of this.

[grampahol]

(12-21-2018, 11:50 AM)Fullrock Wrote: Hubbard is too slow to play the OLB spot in a 3-4. He ran a 4.95 40 at his pro day and chose not to run at the combine. Lawson has enough speed to play outside in a 3-4, but how does he come back after ACL surgery?

I just don't think the personnel is there to do it.

I fail to see the relevance of a players 40 time in college after several years in the league. It's a bit like saying that in 4th grade he was able to beat up on 2nd graders....not to mention that there aren't that many plays in football where a player runs 40 yards in a straight line without running into anyone else.  

[J24]

(12-22-2018, 01:10 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They absolutely tried Fej at LB at times this year...and the defense was still really bad. They had Williams and Bates playing traditional safety.

The Saints game was one example of this.

He was actually playing Nickle Back that game for Phillips.  He got burned a couple of times in that game from what I recall.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2018, 07:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My UK Boyz come to mind

Bud Dupree

Za'Darius Smith

If we did go that route I'd like to take the other UK Boy

James Harrison too.


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[*bfine32*]

(12-22-2018, 10:58 PM)ochocincos Wrote: James Harrison too.


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Harrison is surprisingly small. 240ish..

But there are others:

Both OLBs from Houston.

Chandler Jones played OLB until this year when ARZ switched to 4-3. 

Oliver Vernon from NYG

Copeland from NYJ

Morgan at TEN

Both from WAS

Hubbard is pretty much what you're looking for (size) in a ROLB in a 3-4. 

[Socal Bengals fan]

(12-21-2018, 11:07 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Still don't think we have the personnel for it at all; Dunlap's effectiveness will go down, while Geno's will stay the same and Billings is a wildcard in that scenario.

Then you go to the ILBs, Burfict and Brown, who are both slow and not that stellar in coverage.

Lawson is the only player that fits for the rush, maybe Willis. Hubbard is too big and we have no clue how he is in coverage; yes, he played S, but he was significantly smaller at that time.

Don't like it also from my own personal philosophy, as I've always been a 4-3 guy and either alignment has NEVER proven to be better than the other.

This. We don’t have the personal that would fit. Lawson might be the only decent fit in a 3 4

[*ochocincos*]

(12-23-2018, 01:22 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Harrison is surprisingly small. 240ish..

But there are others:

Both OLBs from Houston.

Chandler Jones played OLB until this year when ARZ switched to 4-3. 

Oliver Vernon from NYG

Copeland from NYJ

Morgan at TEN

Both from WAS

Hubbard is pretty much what you're looking for (size) in a ROLB in a 3-4. 

Hmm, Google told me “6’0”, 275 lbs” when I searched “James Harrison height weight”. Guess it lied.


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[Socal Bengals fan]

Leave Hubbard where he’s at. We don’t need him dropping into coverage when he’s best at attacking. Dunlap is a prototype LDE in size n skill set. Leave him there. Atkins is the prototype 5 tech tackle. These guys are perfect for the 4 3 defense. Leave then there. Let’s just get 3 better linebackers, a better strong safety , replace Kirkpatrick n the defensive coach. Much easier than trying to move everyone around

[SunsetBengal]

(12-23-2018, 01:22 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Leave Hubbard where he’s at.  We don’t need him dropping into coverage when he’s best at attacking.  Dunlap is a prototype LDE in size n skill set.   Leave him there.  Atkins is the prototype 5 tech tackle.   These guys are perfect for the 4 3 defense.  Leave then there.  Let’s just get 3 better linebackers, a better strong safety , replace Kirkpatrick n the defensive coach.   Much easier than trying to move everyone around

Easier than trying to move everyone around?  You're talking about 3 LBs, a SS, and a CB.  That's 5 of 11.  If you're going that far, why not just go the distance and select those 5 new guys to fit the new scheme?

Not that I'm for or against switching defenses, I just found it ironic that you wanted to keep things the same, yet replace half the personnel.    

Anyway, wasn't trying to come off as ass. If they stay 4-3, they definitely need to get strong up the middle.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-23-2018, 01:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Easier than trying to move everyone around?  You're talking about 3 LBs, a SS, and a CB.  That's 5 of 11.  If you're going that far, why not just go the distance and select those 5 new guys to fit the new scheme?

Not that I'm for or against switching defenses, I just found it ironic that you wanted to keep things the same, yet replace half the personnel.    

Anyway, wasn't trying to come off as ass.  If they stay 4-3, they definitely need to get strong up the middle.

Exactly. It might be easier/faster to improve the defense by switching to a 3-4 rather than have to replace 2-3 LBs and a DB or two.