End of the "Dalton Scale"?

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-27-2015, 09:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Drew Bledsoe went to a Super Bowl in his fourth season, but his postseason stats through those first four seasons were 51.6 completion %, 207.5 yards per games, 4 tds, 10 ints, and a 49.1 passer rating

Kerry Collins was a Super Bowl QB, but his postseason numbers over his first four years were 157.5 yards per game and a 63.9 passer rating.

Randall Cunningham made the playoffs 8 times and won 5 postseason games, but over his first four seasons his playoff passer rating was 52.0

Jake Delhomme started 2 conference Championship Games and 1 Super Bowl, but he did not even make the playoffs his first 4 seasons.

Trent Dilfer won playoff games with two different teams (Tampa Bay, Baltimore) and took one to the Super Bowl. His postseason stats over his first four years were 38.7 completion percentage, 190.5 yards per game, and a 45.2 passer rating. In the 4 postseason games of his Super Bowl year (his 7th season) he compiled a respectable 83.7 passer rating.

Drew Bledsoe, 14 years. first 4 playoff games terrible like Dalton. Never went on to have any good playoff performances. Average career QB.

Kerry Collins, 17 years. Playoff games 3 and 4 were 82qbr and 120qbr. Went on to have only one other good playoff performance. Average, at best, career QB.

Randall Cunningham, 16 years. 3 bad playoff games to start, then a 92 in his 4th playoff attempt. Only one other playoff performance over 90. Athletic, slightly above average QB.

Jake Delhomme, 14 years. first 4 playoff games were excellent. Average career QB.

Trent Dilfer, 14 years. 3rd playoff game was 118qbr while only attempting 14 passes. After that, only 3 more average playoff performances with low pass attempts.
Below average career QB.

I asked you to find me any QB with his first 4 playoff performances to be as bad as Dalton--not named Flacco--who went on to have playoff success later in his career.

These are the guys you want to compare Dalton to?

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-27-2015, 06:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And those games came later in his career.

Basically you are penalizing Dalton for making the playoffs earlier in his career than Aikman.

Those were all in his 4th year, Fred. The same time frame Dalton is in now. At the end of their respective 4th years, Dalton is where he is now and Aikman had a ring on his finger, throwing up excellent playoff performances.

[Whatever]

(05-27-2015, 11:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Those were all in his 4th year, Fred. The same time frame Dalton is in now. At the end of their respective 4th years, Dalton is where he is now and Aikman had a ring on his finger, throwing up excellent playoff performances.

Hard to compare Dalton's playoff performances to others, mainly because there are very few QB's who made the playoffs their first four years. Flacco is pretty close, but you want to exclude him for some reason.

There's tons of Super Bowl winning QB's who didn't win a playoff game their first four years, however. Drew Brees, Phil Simms, and Steve Young come to mind.

[DaltontoKroftSBchamps]

(05-27-2015, 11:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: Hard to compare Dalton's playoff performances to others, mainly because there are very few QB's who made the playoffs their first four years.  Flacco is pretty close, but you want to exclude him for some reason.

There's tons of Super Bowl winning QB's who didn't win a playoff game their first four years, however.  Drew Brees, Phil Simms, and Steve Young come to mind.

This is a new season. The key is getting a home playoff game. Yes, I know the Bengals lost to the Chargers at home. However, this team should do well if they win the division. Three of the four losses were on the road.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-27-2015, 11:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: Hard to compare Dalton's playoff performances to others, mainly because there are very few QB's who made the playoffs their first four years.  Flacco is pretty close, but you want to exclude him for some reason.

There's tons of Super Bowl winning QB's who didn't win a playoff game their first four years, however.  Drew Brees, Phil Simms, and Steve Young come to mind.

Flacco isn't being excluded. He's the closest comparison. Started from the beginning, played very poorly in his first several tries in the playoffs. 

I'm looking for someone other than Flacco. People keep making excuses but the fact remains; no matter the circumstances, Dalton plays poorly in the playoffs. 

You can find plenty of QBs that played well early in their playoff careers and you can find plenty of QBs that played poorly early in their playoff careers. It's very difficult to find a QB who played well in the beginning of their careers (like Dalton has in the regular season) and stunk it up, consistently, in the playoffs. And it's seems to be pretty much impossible to find a QB who played, consistently, poorly early in their playoff careers and went on to right the ship and do well in the playoffs later in their career. Other than Flacco.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-27-2015, 11:58 PM)DaltontoKroftSBchamps Wrote: This is a new season.  The key is getting a home playoff game.  Yes, I know the Bengals lost to the Chargers at home.  However, this team should do well if they win the division.  Three of the four losses were on the road.

Super Marvio will not allow this to happen. Almost every circumstance imaginable and he's managed to lose every playoff game he's been Head Coach in.

[*Synric*]

Eli Manning is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL and he has won two superbowls. Who's to say Dalton can't win one?

[djs7685]

(05-27-2015, 06:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In his third season Dalton had a t6errible run game behind him (18th in yards and 28th in yards per carry), and he had a VERY inexperienced receiving corps.  Four of his top six receivers (Sanu, Jones, Bernard, Eifert) came into that season with a COMBINED 2 years of NFL experience and 34 receptions among them.

1. It's funny because the biggest excuses for Andy in 2014 is that Eifert and Jones missed the entire season. What is their worth? We can't pretend that they were the reason he had a shitty 2014 yet turn around and make it seem like they were no big deal in 2013. It doesn't quite work that way.

2. In 2012, a mediocre BJGE had to carry the full workload with his 3.9 YPC, 6 TDs while adding an amazing 100 yards and 0 TDs receiving. He also fumbled 3 times losing 2 of them.

In 2013, we had Bernard to give the team a boost at RB. Bernard helped out with a 4.1 YPC and 5 TDs while adding another 500+ yards and 3 TDs in the passing game. Pretty cool, right?

In 2012, Andy had Andrew Hawkins as his #2 target from the slot along with receiving superstar Armon Binns sharing some time on the outside with the rookies Sanu and Jones. Oh, and Orson Charles was the #2 TE at the time as well, let's not forget about that.

In 2013, Andy had second year guys stepping up in the #2 role with Marvin Jones actually getting significant snaps as the year went on and Sanu as well. Andrew Hawkins got to be the #4 receiver. Hawkins seems a lot better when he's your 4th or worse option and doesn't have to be your prime target past A.J. Green. Do I really need to explain how much better Tyler Eifert is than Orson Charles?

You can sit here and cry stats and inexperience all that you'd like, but the fact remains that Andy had a much better group of player surrounding him in 2013 than in 2012. I give Andy props for not completely shitting the bed with the guys he played with in 2011 - 2012. There were some good players in place, but he clearly had his best supporting cast in 2013. Conveniently, that was his "big year" as a pro. I'm just saying that if some folks are going to cry injury in 2014, they need to at least recognize that the Bengals have been doing everything they can to load talent around Andy Dalton. The difference in talent on the field from 2012 to 2013 is at least something to consider before giving 100% of the credit to Andy for that season.

[*Nately120*]

(05-27-2015, 05:08 PM)J24 Wrote: Mark Snachez has gone to two AFC championships, Eli Manning has won two Championships,  Joe Flaco has won a championship,  Colin Kaepernick has started a Superbowl, Big Ben has won two championships and went to another Superbowl while being mediocre QB with a great defense, and Russell Wilson has a championship and went to another.  None of those Guys are astronomicaly better than Dalton and all have had success in the post season. Does Andy need to player better in the postseason yes but its been proven that Guys with similar  abilities to him have been successfull in the playoffs.

Nor are any of those guys astronomically better than the QB we had before Dalton.  This is my rub with the team...we have an amount of QB stability for the past decade (though not QB superstardom) that usually culminates with some sort of post-season success and/or championship push but we have seen a number of teams  bring in better QBs, bring in worse QBs, and start players who were backups or out of the league before our first QB lost his starting gig.

Long-term disappointment despite QB consistency and decency is on ownership and that's the hell of it.  So it goes.

[leonardfan40]

(05-27-2015, 07:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yeah, those were real blowouts weren't they?  And one of those losses was in Miami on a short week (Thursday Night).

I also believe Dalton is 1-1 against Brady, 1-0 against Rogers, 1-0 against Brees, 1-1 against Rivers, 1-0 against Eli Manning, and 1-2 against Peyton Manning becoming the only Bengal's starting QB to beat him?  Care to try again or are you still confused?

Dalton making the playoffs does not make him better than Tannehill. There is zero reason to bash Tannehill while at the same time making excuses for Dalton when they are basically in the exact same boat.

And yes you can put up a handful of stats to make Dalton look good, but you can do the same to make him look bad. And acting like he's a great QB because he beat manning once is ridiculous. Just because the bengals have been pathetic against him doesn't mean one win makes Dalton amazing. Truth is they are both average QB's who got paid a fair price. Neither is much better than the other.  

[fredtoast]

(05-28-2015, 02:38 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: And it's seems to be pretty much impossible to find a QB who played, consistently, poorly early in their playoff careers and went on to right the ship and do well in the playoffs later in their career. 

Cunningham had a 97.8 passer rating in two postseason games in '98.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-28-2015, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Cunningham had a 97.8 passer rating in two postseason games in '98.

Yeah. Cunningham and Collins were able to have an instance of success later but the more i think about it, the crazier it seems that there aren't more times where a QB has started off slow and turned it on later in his career. 

Flacco pretty much stands in that boat alone. Bengals fans can only hope that Dalton turns out that way.

[RoyleRedlegs]

Roethlisberger has been somewhat up and down for his playoff career. A few pretty bad games, some not so bad games and some great games.
Hell, he had a very Dalton-esque game in the Super Bowl but his team still won.

[Utts]

(05-20-2015, 04:43 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Dalton was so bad last year, that they now see him as the 25th or even 27th QB in the league  
Thus, he cannot be the QB or "scale" to judge other QBs off of.

It's all media bias against small market teams and gingers. Obviously Dalton is a better than average QB that you can build a Super Bowl contender with, if somehow you could get playoffs byes all the way to the Super Bowl.

[OSUfan]

(05-29-2015, 01:15 AM)Utts Wrote: It's all media bias against small market teams and gingers. Obviously Dalton is a better than average QB that you can build a Super Bowl contender with, if somehow you could get playoffs byes all the way to the Super Bowl.

Has to be correct as we all know that the entire rest of the team has played some of the best football they have ever played in the playoffs........

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-28-2015, 01:31 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Dalton making the playoffs does not make him better than Tannehill. There is zero reason to bash Tannehill while at the same time making excuses for Dalton when they are basically in the exact same boat.

And yes you can put up a handful of stats to make Dalton look good, but you can do the same to make him look bad. And acting like he's a great QB because he beat manning once is ridiculous. Just because the bengals have been pathetic against him doesn't mean one win makes Dalton amazing. Truth is they are both average QB's who got paid a fair price. Neither is much better than the other.  

Funny that you have such a problem of my six examples when you provided just one example of the same measure to make a point about Tannehill being superior somehow to Dalton. 

Again, look at the division they reside and note the schedule of a third place team vs. a first or second place team. 

This season will be an interesting measure on the two QBs because Tannehill's got a lot of weapons and his division looks ready for the taking. 

[*Nately120*]

(05-28-2015, 02:50 AM)Synric Wrote: Eli Manning is the most inconsistent QB in the NFL and he has won two superbowls. Who's to say Dalton can't win one?

Good point.  Eli Manning has a post-season TD to INT ratio of 17-8 with a QB rating near 90 so I can't see why a guy who threw 1 TD to 7 INTs and has a rating of 58 or so can't win, too.

[leonardfan40]

(05-29-2015, 08:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Funny that you have such a problem of my six examples when you provided just one example of the same measure to make a point about Tannehill being superior somehow to Dalton. 

Again, look at the division they reside and note the schedule of a third place team vs. a first or second place team. 

This season will be an interesting measure on the two QBs because Tannehill's got a lot of weapons and his division looks ready for the taking. 

I never said that, why don't you actually read my post before commenting. I said the two QB's are basically even and there is really no point in even debating which one is better because they are on the same level.

And oh yeah all the Dolphins have to do is take the division from the defending SB Champs. Child's play lol..I'm sure the Bengals would have no problem with that 

[Utts]

We are talking about a lot of QB's that didn't play in the current pass happy era. Not exactly apples to apples.

[type_stripe]

Comparing Tannehill's best season to Dalton's worst? Not truly a fair assessment.