What Point Should A Team Move On From A Player

[samhain]

(06-21-2020, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Wait, why is it time to send WJ3 and Ross packing but not Price when Price has performed worse than both of them?
Please explain how Price has a chance to turn into a good player but Ross and WJ3 do not.

This.

Price has demonstrated virtually zero value to this team on the field.  He's been terrible as a starter and as a back up.  Injuries seemed to be the explanation, but even when healthy, he looks like a player that is unfortunately physically overmatched at the pro level.  I hate that because I really wanted him to be the answer at center for the next decade.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-21-2020, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Wait, why is it time to send WJ3 and Ross packing but not Price when Price has performed worse than both of them?
Please explain how Price has a chance to turn into a good player but Ross and WJ3 do not.

I’m also curious why Price is “a good kid” and those other two are not...

[jfkbengals]

(06-21-2020, 03:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Wait, why is it time to send WJ3 and Ross packing but not Price when Price has performed worse than both of them?
Please explain how Price has a chance to turn into a good player but Ross and WJ3 do not.

My $.02, Price feel behind at center due to injury and was shifted to a different position to have a chance to compete for a starting position.  Again he fell behind due to injury and is the first backup at both positions.  As such he is not receiving regular playing time or starting practice reps to help develop at either position.

WJ3 and Ross have both struggled to some degree at their natural positions, but are still getting playing time as a starter or regular reserve role, as well as receiving a majority amount of practice reps.

Price, if installed at a guard position and left there to receive the reps and game time, has the opportunity to grow at that position.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-20-2020, 09:28 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: In the entire time Dalton was our QB I never remember a WR that left the Bengals say Dalton held them back.. Ross is his worst enemy and will have to overcome rhat himself.. Erickson still has the main punt returner and he is dependable not injury prone,, tough minded  and from your own point should also improve with better QB.

Why would a Receiver say a QB held them back?

In the end it is a moot point that you are stating, Ross will not be cut, it does not benefit anyone.

(06-21-2020, 11:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually the Pats have sucked at getting much production from thie WRs.

The Pats have drafted 17 WRs since Bill has been head coach and the 4th best on that list in career receptions is Brandon Tate with 71.  Here are some of the others.

1st round N'Keal Harry........12 career receptions
2nd round Chad Jackson.....14
2nd round Bethel Johnson...39
2nd round Aaron Dobson.....53
3rd round Taylor Price..........3
4th round Josh Boyce...........9
4th round Malcome Mitchell..32

Well, guys like Edelman I highly doubt would be as productive if they were anywhere else.

N'Keal Harry was a rookie last season and think he could be good down the road but not near as good as if he had Brady throwing
to him. Bottom line is a QB that can throw to a WR in stride and that is extremely accurate helps the WR. Burrow will help Ross IMO.

[impactplaya]

John Ross is 3rd on the team on the most TDS
scored over the last 2 years

Mixon 17
Boyd 12
Ross 10

Talking of wanting him cut released is really kind
Of silly. Anybody wanna guess how many TDS
Alex Erickson has scored in 2 years ?

[SunsetBengal]

(06-21-2020, 07:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: John Ross is 3rd on the team on the most TDS
scored over the last 2 years

Mixon 17
Boyd 12
Ross 10

Talking of wanting him cut released is really kind
Of silly. Anybody wanna guess how many TDS
Alex Erickson has scored in 2 years ?

No offense, but none of those are numbers to be bragging about.  As far as John Ross goes, I simply expected more from a guy drafted 10th overall, and had the fastest foot speed in the NFL that Spring.  Bottom line is that this is now do or die, now or never, shit or get off the pot, as far as continuing to remain a Bengal goes for John Ross.

Now, this does not mean that I'm rooting against John Ross.  In fact, I'm hoping that he finds the magical potion that keeps him completely healthy and focused on catching balls, and he comes through with 1,250+ yds and 14 TDs, like he was supposed to do, from the get go..

[jfkbengals]

(06-21-2020, 08:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: No offense, but none of those are numbers to be bragging about.  As far as John Ross goes, I simply expected more from a guy drafted 10th overall, and had the fastest foot speed in the NFL that Spring.  Bottom line is that this is now do or die, now or never, shit or get off the pot, as far as continuing to remain a Bengal goes for John Ross.

Now, this does not mean that I'm rooting against John Ross.  In fact, I'm hoping that he finds the magical potion that keeps him completely healthy and focused on catching balls, and he comes through with 1,250+ yds and 14 TDs, like he was supposed to do, from the get go..

9th overall, and the fastest NFL 40 time EVER

[SunsetBengal]

(06-21-2020, 09:36 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: 9th overall, and the fastest NFL 40 time EVER

Thank you for the corrections.  My point, is now exacerbated. 

Edit: And, as for Billy Price? If he don't show much promise this season, I say we trade him for a 6th round pick, to use on Clark Harris' potential replacement. I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of a LS is, but the guy is 35 now, and isn't likely getting any younger.

[impactplaya]

(06-21-2020, 08:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: No offense, but none of those are numbers to be bragging about.  As far as John Ross goes, I simply expected more from a guy drafted 10th overall, and had the fastest foot speed in the NFL that Spring.  Bottom line is that this is now do or die, now or never, shit or get off the pot, as far as continuing to remain a Bengal goes for John Ross.

Now, this does not mean that I'm rooting against John Ross.  In fact, I'm hoping that he finds the magical potion that keeps him completely healthy and focused on catching balls, and he comes through with 1,250+ yds and 14 TDs, like he was supposed to do, from the get go..

It is a do or die year for Ross. You know it , I know it , he knows it. But if you were expecting Ross to put up 1,250 and 14,then 
Other things around him had to fall into place.
Ross's biggest issue has been staying healthy. 
If he had played a full.season in 2019 he was on pace 
For 1,000 YDS. But Captain Inaccurate threw him a pass that hung him out and he got popped in the chest , boom out 8 games 

[SunsetBengal]

(06-21-2020, 10:00 PM)impactplaya Wrote: It is a do or die year for Ross. You know it , I know it , he knows it. But if you were expecting Ross to put up 1,250 and 14,then 
Other things around him had to fall into place.
Ross's biggest issue has been staying healthy. 
If he had played a full.season in 2019 he was on pace 
For 1,000 YDS. But Captain Inaccurate threw him a pass that hung him out and he got popped in the chest , boom out 8 games 

You are correct, his biggest issue has been staying healthy.  However myself, along with many other casual Bengal observers have noticed a few other underlying issues that perhaps he could have greater control over.  Issues like dropping balls that appear to be very catchable, and possibly commitment issues, from the appearance of giving up on routes during plays.

When a player get's injured going hard, it's a tragedy.  When a player get's injured while half-assing it, it's his own damn fault..  (said my HS coach)

[jfkbengals]

(06-21-2020, 09:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thank you for the corrections.  My point, is now exacerbated. 

Edit:  And, as for Billy Price?  If he don't show much promise this season, I say we trade him for a 6th round pick, to use on Clark Harris' potential replacement.  I'm not sure what the expected lifespan of a LS is, but the guy is 35 now, and isn't likely getting any younger.

As was the intent

[impactplaya]

(06-21-2020, 10:08 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You are correct, his biggest issue has been staying healthy.  However myself, along with many other casual Bengal observers have noticed a few other underlying issues that perhaps he could have greater control over.  Issues like dropping balls that appear to be very catchable, and possibly commitment issues, from the appearance of giving up on routes during plays.

When a player get's injured going hard, it's a tragedy.  When a player get's injured while half-assing it, it's his own damn fault..  (said my HS coach)

I don't think any of Ross's injuries were cause he.was not going all out. He pulled up gimpy vs the Falcons and he got hit square 
In the chest vs the Steelers.
He has had drops. But what  target hasn't dropped a pass?
I.don't think any of his drops were game changers 
His giving up.on routes seemed to be a issue yr 2 but not yr 3?
Wouldn't that be ironic if Tee Higgins showed he was the real 
Deal this year and Ross put it together this year.
That would possibly make Green expenable 

[Essex Johnson]

(06-21-2020, 07:39 PM)impactplaya Wrote: John Ross is 3rd on the team on the most TDS
scored over the last 2 years

Mixon 17
Boyd 12
Ross 10

Talking of wanting him cut released is really kind
Of silly. Anybody wanna guess how many TDS
Alex Erickson has scored in 2 years ?

Yes he has TDs and a greater threat downfield... but lets dig into more stats on the two that are also interesting over last three years

Games Played:  Erickson:  48  Ross:  24
Catches:  Erickson:  75  Ross 49
Targets/Catches %   Erickson: 60%   Ross:  42%
Specialities:  Erickson: Punter/Kicker Returner, vs. Ross (im not sure if he has an official return)

Finally here is a real telling stat on production.  in 2018 Ross played 60% of Off. plays but only recorded 21 catches.. Alex played in 37% of Off plays and had 20 catches.. This is the main issue with Ross so far in his career.. well outside of only playing 50% of the games.. he has not shown the ability to actually get open, run proper routes and make the catches on consistent bases.. where Alex has..  Look 40 time is overrated but some think Alex is slow as a WR.. well he did run a 4.4 so I would not consider that slow for a WR.

So my last post on this.. if Ross does not show improvement in preseason games.. and Taylor actually wants to hold up to his word of "holding accountable" Ross is on the bubble of being cut....

[*ochocincos*]

(06-22-2020, 12:06 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Yes he has TDs and a greater threat downfield... but lets dig into more stats on the two that are also interesting over last three years

Games Played:  Erickson:  48  Ross:  24
Catches:  Erickson:  75  Ross 49
Targets/Catches %   Erickson: 60%   Ross:  42%
Specialities:  Erickson: Punter/Kicker Returner, vs. Ross (im not sure if he has an official return)

Finally here is a real telling stat on production.  in 2018 Ross played 60% of Off. plays but only recorded 21 catches.. Alex played in 37% of Off plays and had 20 catches.. This is the main issue with Ross so far in his career.. well outside of only playing 50% of the games.. he has not shown the ability to actually get open, run proper routes and make the catches on consistent bases.. where Alex has..   Look 40 time is overrated but some think Alex is slow as a WR.. well he did run a 4.4 so I would not consider that slow for a WR.

So my last post on this.. if Ross does not show improvement in preseason games.. and Taylor actually wants to hold up to his word of "holding accountable" Ross is on the bubble of being cut....

You'd be fine with the Bengals taking a $5.5 mill cap hit by cutting Ross? Cuz his contract this year is fully guaranteed whether he's on the team or not. May as well keep him, as he's still gonna be better at WR than someone like Mike Thomas, Stanley Morgan, or Damion Willis.

Also, you are talking about availability is what makes Erickson better than Ross at WR.
Let's look at their actual production over the past 2 years to see whether it matters if Erickson is more available or not...
Ross - 716 yards, 10 TDs
Erickson - 696 yards, 0 TDs

So even though Erickson has been available twice the number of games as Ross, Ross still outproduced him both in yards and TDs because Ross the better guy on offense.

If we're talking depth WRs (which we are), I'd rather keep the guy who can be a 1000+ yard guy if healthy over someone who would only get about half that if fully healthy.

[Hammerstripes]

When should you move away from a player? For me it's pretty simple:

1. If the player is on a rookie deal, there's really no need to move on until you have to pay the 5th year option. Things can change drastically and there is no need to move on from a cheap contract. The only exceptions for me are significant off field issues or a career threatening/ending injury.

2. For a veteran, it's when you don't like the guy is going to be a good value at the end of his new contract. Those can be pretty tough decisions.

As for the guys in this discussionL

Ross - you can't pick up his option, it's too much $$$. But he's going to be a nice part of this offense if he can stay healthy.
WJ3 - the guys has shown flashes of being an elite corner. It's a make or break year for him
Price - He's been horrible. Oddly enough I remember him being pretty good his rookie preseason and the first part of the season until he got hurt. He's been trash since. Another make or break year for him.

[*ochocincos*]

(06-21-2020, 04:59 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: My $.02, Price feel behind at center due to injury and was shifted to a different position to have a chance to compete for a starting position.  Again he fell behind due to injury and is the first backup at both positions.  As such he is not receiving regular playing time or starting practice reps to help develop at either position.

WJ3 and Ross have both struggled to some degree at their natural positions, but are still getting playing time as a starter or regular reserve role, as well as receiving a majority amount of practice reps.

Price, if installed at a guard position and left there to receive the reps and game time, has the opportunity to grow at that position.

You don't think Ross fell behind due to injury?

Price has actually been available for more games than Ross has (26 vs 24), so Price should actually be ahead of Ross from a productivity standpoint.

I've seen more out of Ross than I have of Price. At least Ross has done something well the past two years (a lot of TDs 2018, 500+ yards in 8 games last year) compared to Price.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-22-2020, 02:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't think Ross fell behind due to injury?

Price has actually been available for more games than Ross has (26 vs 24), so Price should actually be ahead of Ross from a productivity standpoint.

I've seen more out of Ross than I have of Price. At least Ross has done something well the past two years (a lot of TDs 2018, 500+ yards in 8 games last year) compared to Price.

Lets put it this way. On a scale of 1-10 on chances of becoming an NFL starter, 10 of course being a sure thing.

I'd give Ross about a 5.5 I still have quite a bit of doubt. Price on the other hand has basically been hot garbage, I'd give him like a 2.

[Essex Johnson]

(06-22-2020, 03:04 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Lets put it this way. On a scale of 1-10 on chances of becoming an NFL starter, 10 of course being a sure thing.

I'd give Ross about a 5.5 I still have quite a bit of doubt. Price on the other hand has basically been hot garbage, I'd give him like a 2.

I really don;t see that comparison.. Price rookie year he played better than Ross did over a span of games... neither played a good level overall but Ross was way worse than Price.  Last year agree Ross did a bit better and Price did not see the field much... but Ross is also in 4th year. Price only in 3rd.. so room to grow.

I would put them at 4 to 5 each at this time.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(06-22-2020, 03:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I really don;t see that comparison.. Price rookie year he played better than Ross did over a span of games... neither played a good level overall but Ross was way worse than Price.  Last year agree Ross did a bit better and Price did not see the field much... but Ross is also in 4th year. Price only in 3rd.. so room to grow.

I would put them at 4 to 5 each at this time.

What games are you watching?? Ross has shown far more than Price ever has.

[Essex Johnson]

(06-22-2020, 03:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What games are you watching?? Ross has shown far more than Price ever has.

Obviously not the games you are.. sure you are on the right station? Lol