Argument for and against Sewell.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-16-2020, 01:38 AM)Whatever Wrote: You act like you can't sign FA's to the same 4 years draft picks are signed to.  You can even sign them for longer than that if they agree.  Do you think guys like Thuney or Scherff are going to sign 2-3 year deals? 

If you want to throw Burrow out there behind an OL filled with typical Bengal bargain bin FA's and a couple of rookie 2nd day picks, then I don't know what to tell you at this point.  

You take any potential trade into consideration.  With the cap going down, you're highly unlikely to run into the kind of bidding war scenario that's going to yield the king's ransom of picks you're talking about, though.  What are you going to do with our salary cap space?  Overpay to keep Lawson, WJIII, and Spain?  

How did Dalton survive with a terrible line??  Its football , teams play with bad lines.. you cant buy a whole line, 

[Au165]

(12-15-2020, 11:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wirfs went #13, and has been an absolute stud.

Wirfs has been really good. Iowa lineman are about as can't miss as you can get it feels like haha.

[Au165]

(12-16-2020, 01:48 AM)Whatever Wrote: We were the same 28th in sacks in '18 when he missed most of the year as we were in '19 when he returned with almost the same DL around him.

And again, that was PFF's Top 50, and they're the biggest name analytics site out there.  

Again, sacks are often uncontrollable to an extent. Maxx Crosby had a bunch of sacks last season but people quickly pointed to the fact all but two of his sacks guys basically just ran into him, he didn't "win" any matchups. I am not making it up, teams look at pressures Lawson has a ton of them and so he will get paid.

While I appreciate PFF, they have Clowney as the 16th player on their FA list. The league has told us what they think about Clowney as Houston didn't want to pay him, Seattle didn't want to pay him, No one in FA wanted to commit to him and now Tennessee doesn't appear to want to pay him. Scroll a little further and Jameis Winston at 18 kind of puts the nail in the coffin for me on this list. You have a guy who again, no one wanted to pay last year in FA, who wasn't even the 2nd on the Saints depth chart being the 18th best FA? Also, Ryan Fitzpatrick at 22? lol. 

If you need to see how bad this list really is, check out their number 15 FA Cam Newton...who they predict the Bengals sign to a 1 year 20 million dollar contract. Doesn't seem like the guy making this list really is connected to any sort of FA realities if you read through a lot of their predicitons.

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 09:30 AM)Au165 Wrote: Again, sacks are often uncontrollable to an extent. Maxx Crosby had a bunch of sacks last season but people quickly pointed to the fact all but two of his sacks guys basically just ran into him, he didn't "win" any matchups. I am not making it up, teams look at pressures Lawson has a ton of them and so he will get paid.

While I appreciate PFF, they have Clowney as the 16th player on their FA list. The league has told us what they think about Clowney as Houston didn't want to pay him, Seattle didn't want to pay him, No one in FA wanted to commit to him and now Tennessee doesn't appear to want to pay him. Scroll a little further and Jameis Winston at 18 kind of puts the nail in the coffin for me on this list. You have a guy who again, no one wanted to pay last year in FA, who wasn't even the 2nd on the Saints depth chart being the 18th best FA? Also, Ryan Fitzpatrick at 22? lol. 

If you need to see how bad this list really is, check out their number 15 FA Cam Newton...who they predict the Bengals sign to a 1 year 20 million dollar contract. Doesn't seem like the guy making this list really is connected to any sort of FA realities if you read through a lot of their predicitons.

Crosby is an interesting case, similar to the "Gil-,Dong sack" criticism of former Steelers edge Jason Gildon.  Still, he had 10 last year and 6 so far this year so the guy is either really lucky or really disciplined in his assignments.

Lawson is tough to quantify simply because most edges that generate lots of pressures also have the sack #'s to go along with it.  I can't think of a single edge that has been paid huge money based off high pressures with a poor sack total.  It's also a bad off-season for his agent to push that point, as there's added pressure on GM's to keep contracts down with the cap dropping.

FWIW, PFF actually has Clowney graded higher than Lawson.  Clowney's issues are more that he's picky about who he wants to play for as was trying to become the highest paid defender in the league, which he shouldn't be.  Just like draft boards, QB's are always going to be overrated based on the importance of the position.  

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 02:21 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: How did Dalton survive with a terrible line??  Its football , teams play with bad lines.. you cant buy a whole line, 

Dalton eventually got shell shocked after a few years of playing behind bad lines.  It was evident in his play last year.

Obviously, you can't buy a whole OL.  However, you don't have to buy a whole OL.  Jonah is a good young T and Hopkins is at least solid in pass pro.  Drop the money on Thuney at LG and Warford at RG and you have a good OL, at least on paper.  You can use a back or TE to help Hart or a draft pick at RT.  

Teams play with all kinds of different bad position groups.  Some teams have crap WR's, DL's, LB's, secondaries, etc.  What is that even supposed to mean?

[Au165]

(12-16-2020, 11:53 AM)Whatever Wrote: FWIW, PFF actually has Clowney graded higher than Lawson.  Clowney's issues are more that he's picky about who he wants to play for as was trying to become the highest paid defender in the league, which he shouldn't be.  Just like draft boards, QB's are always going to be overrated based on the importance of the position.  

Lawson is graded 15 points higher than Matthew Judon who is on that top 50 list though so it's kind of odd the way they approached the list. 

Getting back to the thread though, I still believe moving down offers us plenty of options. Even if it isn't to get an edge guy, maybe it is a guy like Pitts or a corner. I do think what we do with WJ3 will have a lot of impact on the overall offseason strategy. 

[Gdale_Bengal]

(12-16-2020, 12:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: Dalton eventually got shell shocked after a few years of playing behind bad lines.  It was evident in his play last year.

Obviously, you can't buy a whole OL.  However, you don't have to buy a whole OL.  Jonah is a good young T and Hopkins is at least solid in pass pro.  Drop the money on Thuney at LG and Warford at RG and you have a good OL, at least on paper.  You can use a back or TE to help Hart or a draft pick at RT.  

Teams play with all kinds of different bad position groups.  Some teams have crap WR's, DL's, LB's, secondaries, etc.  What is that even supposed to mean?

I mean if the drafts goes a certain way you could replace 4 players and keep Jonah if they get 2 guards in FA. They could draft Sewell in round 1 and Creed Humphrey in 2. Then you have Sewell-FA-Humphrey-FA-Jonah or reverse the tackles. I don’t think they do that but that would be pretty cool.

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 12:17 PM)Au165 Wrote: Lawson is graded 15 points higher than Matthew Judon who is on that top 50 list though so it's kind of odd the way they approached the list. 

Getting back to the thread though, I still believe moving down offers us plenty of options. Even if it isn't to get an edge guy, maybe it is a guy like Pitts or a corner. I do think what we do with WJ3 will have a lot of impact on the overall offseason strategy. 

Hard to say what they will do with their cap dollars at this point.  It's theysign a guy like Motion, as you suggested earlier, then that probably takes Sewell off the board.  If WJIII gets resigned, that probably takes a CB off the board.  Lots of variables in play.

Personally, if you don't have a QB and there's one you like there, you stay put and take the QB. If you do, then you listen to any and all offers.  If the right deal is there, you take it.  However, I'm more than fine staying put and taking Sewell, Chase, or Pitts at #3, also.

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 12:24 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I mean if the drafts goes a certain way you could replace 4 players and keep Jonah if they get 2 guards in FA. They could draft Sewell in round 1 and Creed Humphrey in 2. Then you have Sewell-FA-Humphrey-FA-Jonah or reverse the tackles. I don’t think they do that but that would be pretty cool.

Personally, I would want to keep a vet C in front of Burrow to help with protections, but that's just me.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-15-2020, 11:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Wirfs went #13, and has been an absolute stud.

Not sure where you are getting that judgement.. he has been a solid rookie to think at #`13 a solid rookie.. shocking... unless you totally disregard PFF completely except for Bengal low ratings i guess


https://thepewterplank.com/2020/11/19/buccaneers-pff-tristan-wirfs-rookie/

https://saturdaytradition.com/iowa-football/tristan-wirfs-strong-rookie-season-continued-during-monday-night-football-according-to-pff-grades/#:~:text=Wirfs%20was%20graded%20at%20a,get%20the%20Bucs%20a%20win.

[*Synric*]

(12-16-2020, 01:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, I would want to keep a vet C in front of Burrow to help with protections, but that's just me.

I think it would be a good idea to draft someone like Landon Dickerson or Trey Hill who could eventually replace Hopkins even if it isnt in 2021. They could also compete with XSF for a guard spot if they only bring in 1 Free Agent.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-16-2020, 12:24 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I mean if the drafts goes a certain way you could replace 4 players and keep Jonah if they get 2 guards in FA. They could draft Sewell in round 1 and Creed Humphrey in 2. Then you have Sewell-FA-Humphrey-FA-Jonah or reverse the tackles. I don’t think they do that but that would be pretty cool.

They also could trade back and be able to restock with 6 picks in first 100

[RiverRat13]

The only way trading back makes sense is if they sign a guy like Moton. If there is a QB worth taking at 3 for another team, they could go heavy offensively in free agency (something like Moton, Thuney, and Curtis Samuel), trade back and go heavy defensively in the draft. But they better make that assessment prior to free agency.

I think they most likely keep it simple and take Sewell.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(12-16-2020, 01:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: Personally, I would want to keep a vet C in front of Burrow to help with protections, but that's just me.

I’m looking at whole upgrades at each line position and Humphrey is an upgrade to Hopkins even at rookie.

(12-16-2020, 01:54 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: They also could trade back and be able to restock with 6 picks in first 100

It takes 2 to make a trade back happen and there may not be or the returns may not be worth it. We aren’t playing madden in the real world, so I’m looking at the picks they currently have.

[Jpoore]

(12-15-2020, 11:55 AM)Au165 Wrote: The problem really is we have needs at two positions that usually come at a very high premium in FA OL and DL. Honestly, outside of Bud Dupree Carl Lawson could be one of the top FA pass rushers on the market this year so you could re-sign him but you are ending up with the same rush you had for the most part next season. The offensive line will have a few options that will come at a steep premium, but it wouldn't be crazy to try and grab one of these guys. 


If you were to say give Taylor Moton a big-time contract, that could give you enough leeway to trade back and get a pass rusher then go interior OL in the 2nd and potentially again with the extra 2nd you'd presumably get with that move down. Even if you can't move back, signing a guy like Moton would still give you the flexibility to go with another need like Patrick Surtain at 3 then go pass rusher in the 2nd and Guard in the 3rd.

If they are serious about winning, they will need to address one of the needs in FA and I just don't see how you could address pass rush in FA this year. Many people will say Thueny but I still don't see us spending a ton on a guard, so in my mind tackle would be the move. If it's not a guy like Moton it could be Okung, Williams, or maybe another vet that has a couple of years left in them. 

I don’t see the over the top elite pass rusher in this years draft but I love the 2nd and 3rd round rushers. Great rushers. Free agency is tough with our cap. Especially if we resign aj green to a lower deal. If we were to trade back to let’s say 15. Giving us 6 picks minimum in top 100 that would go a long way.

(12-16-2020, 01:38 AM)Whatever Wrote: You act like you can't sign FA's to the same 4 years draft picks are signed to.  You can even sign them for longer than that if they agree.  Do you think guys like Thuney or Scherff are going to sign 2-3 year deals? 

If you want to throw Burrow out there behind an OL filled with typical Bengal bargain bin FA's and a couple of rookie 2nd day picks, then I don't know what to tell you at this point.  

You take any potential trade into consideration.  With the cap going down, you're highly unlikely to run into the kind of bidding war scenario that's going to yield the king's ransom of picks you're talking about, though.  What are you going to do with our salary cap space?  Overpay to keep Lawson, WJIII, and Spain?  

Is tee Higgins a bargain bin wr? Ur acting like a line of say Jonah Spain Hopkins Davis leatherwood would be any worse than average. Just Bc they’re a high 2nd round pick and not a 1st round pick does not make them bargain Bin.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-16-2020, 01:52 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Not sure where you are getting that judgement.. he has been a solid rookie to think at #`13 a solid rookie.. shocking... unless you totally disregard PFF completely except for Bengal low ratings i guess


https://thepewterplank.com/2020/11/19/buccaneers-pff-tristan-wirfs-rookie/

https://saturdaytradition.com/iowa-football/tristan-wirfs-strong-rookie-season-continued-during-monday-night-football-according-to-pff-grades/#:~:text=Wirfs%20was%20graded%20at%20a,get%20the%20Bucs%20a%20win.

What in the world are you even trying to argue here? I called him a stud, and you linked two articles confirming that.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-16-2020, 03:07 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I’m looking at whole upgrades at each line position and Humphrey is an upgrade to Hopkins even at rookie.

It takes 2 to make a trade back happen and there may not be or the returns may not be worth it. We aren’t playing madden in the real world, so I’m looking at the picks they currently have.

Madden i guess is played every year then.. trade backs happen and I posted that Miami is a piece or so away from a very good team.. one of those pieces is OL and they have plenty of draft picks to play with.. don;t you agree ?

[Essex Johnson]

(12-16-2020, 08:38 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What in the world are you even trying to argue here? I called him a stud, and you linked two articles confirming that.

sorry thought you said dud.. my bad but supports my believe you can trade back and get a good Oline this draft also... 

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 06:18 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I don’t see the over the top elite pass rusher in this years draft but I love the 2nd and 3rd round rushers. Great rushers. Free agency is tough  with our cap. Especially if we resign aj green to a lower deal. If we were to trade back to let’s say 15. Giving us 6 picks minimum in top 100 that would go a long way.
Is tee Higgins a bargain bin wr? Ur acting like a line of say Jonah Spain Hopkins Davis leatherwood would be any worse than  average. Just Bc they’re a high 2nd round pick and not a 1st round pick does not make them bargain  Bin.

Reading is fundamental.  I said a line filled with bargain bin FA's and 2nd day picks.  I did not say 2nd day picks were bargain bin.

[Whatever]

(12-16-2020, 09:43 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Madden i guess is played every year then.. trade backs happen and I posted that Miami is a piece or so away from a very good team.. one of those pieces is OL and they have plenty of draft picks to play with.. don;t you agree ?

Miami?  You realize Miami is starting a pair of rookie T's in Austin Jackson (drafted 18th) and Robert Hunt (drafted 39th overall).  And yes, neither guy has played well, with 55.9 and 60.1 PFF ratings, respectively.  That kind of frames how effective it is to start multiple rookies on the OL. So a team that is going through the growing pains of a pair of rookie T's is going to give up a bunch of picks to trade up for another rookie T?  Doesn't really make a lot of sense.