Can a QB help an Oline?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-12-2017, 11:13 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Brady would be the epitome of this thread title.

I'm not so sure coach.....I counted 10 seconds he had to hit Hogan in the back of the endzone during the AFCCG against the Steelers.  The Pats have a GREAT scheme, and one of the best line coaches in NFL history....so good, that after struggling in 2015 a bit, they brought him back out of retirement.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-13-2017, 01:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Figured folks would parrot the "fast release" view. A fast release means nothing more than you get rid of the ball fast; anybody can do that. The question was more designed can Andy manipulate the pocket, buy himself and his receivers time. Quick release means jack when you need to let a play develop. Hell give me the ball and I guarantee I  can release quicker than Andy ever did.

The problem the last few years has been a deformed pocket from his center allowing tremendous pressure up the gut.  When the pocket is collapsed so quickly at the point that is supposed to be anchored from, it leads to trouble.  He could stand to get better at working the pocket, but he has improved at that quite a bit from 2011.  Bodine has just struggled.

[coachmcneil71]

(03-13-2017, 02:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: The problem the last few years has been a deformed pocket from his center allowing tremendous pressure up the gut.  When the pocket is collapsed so quickly at the point that is supposed to be anchored from, it leads to trouble.  He could stand to get better at working the pocket, but he has improved at that quite a bit from 2011.  Bodine has just struggled.

Spot on.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-13-2017, 02:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm not so sure coach.....I counted 10 seconds he had to hit Hogan in the back of the endzone during the AFCCG against the Steelers.  The Pats have a GREAT scheme, and one of the best line coaches in NFL history....so good, that after struggling in 2015 a bit, they brought him back out of retirement.

Dead on.  People make excuses when he has a poor outing or a poor season by saying "Brady doesn't like pressure in his face".  Great.  What QB does?  The point is, he almost never has to deal with it.  

I got absolutely murdered for even "mentioning Brady and Dalton in the same sentence", but I have said it many times:  when Dalton is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  

[bengalhoel]

(03-13-2017, 07:57 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on.  People make excuses when he has a poor outing or a poor season by saying "Brady doesn't like pressure in his face".  Great.  What QB does?  The point is, he almost never has to deal with it.  

I got absolutely murdered for even "mentioning Brady and Dalton in the same sentence", but I have said it many times:  when Dalton is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  

How do you think Brady lost the 2 Super Bowls to the Giants? They had pressure in his face the whole game and a whole shit ton of luck.  Any QB will have a tough day with that kind of pressure. On every drive last year it seemed someone broke through the line and it was impossible to get a throw off.

I know sometimes he has a tendency to roll into pressure instead of stepping up but I think Bodine has made him gun shy.

[TKUHL]

(03-12-2017, 09:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We all know if we stand pat we will go into 2017 with questions at 4 of 5 of our Oline. Many have chimed in about how this will "get Andy killed". Then the other day I was listening to the Radio and the announcers were talking about how a good Oline can help a young QB.

So my mind wondered to the alternative. Can a good QB help a young Oline? I think they can and those suggesting Andy will "get killed" may be underestimating his pocket presence and decision making.

The only way Andy can help this O line is if he lets the front office restructure his contract to free up money to put back into the line. Anyone know of any Bengal player/players who have done this and when.

[eoxyod]

#Wellactually Dalton usually makes the OL look worse than it is. Dalton still has issues with pressure and is generally poor at stepping up in the pocket, or making adjustments in footwork. He scrambles too quickly usually which is never good. He does have a quick release due to our offense which is good, but on long dropbacks he is usually at his worst

[Shake n Blake]

(03-13-2017, 09:51 PM)eoxyod Wrote: #Wellactually Dalton usually makes the OL look worse than it is. Dalton still has issues with pressure and is generally poor at stepping up in the pocket, or making adjustments in footwork. He scrambles too quickly usually which is never good. He does have a quick release due to our offense which is good, but on long dropbacks he is usually at his worst

If this were 2013, I'd agree with you. I think he's been a + in the pocket since working with House.

2015 was his biggest leap in that department, and I didn't see much - if any - regression last year. I was proud of how he seemed unphased by the copious amounts of pressure.

[TKUHL]

(03-13-2017, 10:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If this were 2013, I'd agree with you. I think he's been a + in the pocket since working with House.

2015 was his biggest leap in that department, and I didn't see much - if any - regression last year. I was proud of how he seemed unphased by the copious amounts of pressure.

If I remember this correct I heard Dalton had one of the best QBR rating while under pressure? Not sure if that's true, just though I heard someone mention it during a game.

[jowczarski]

Honestly, I don't think so. To me, the ONLY way to help a young/bad o-line is with team help. Receivers who can separate within two steps, tight ends who can actually block and chip, running backs who can do the same, and a QB who then can fire off to that first read. It's a tough spot to be in. You can manage - but it's not always great. Look at Indy, Minnesota, places whose lines fell part. And I think most would say Andrew Luck is pretty good.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-13-2017, 09:30 PM)TKUHL Wrote: The only way Andy can help this O line is if he lets the front office restructure his contract to free up money to put back into the line. Anyone know of any Bengal player/players who have done this and when.

That or the front office could actually spend high draft picks and/or money on a good center.  

[Shake n Blake]

(03-13-2017, 10:58 PM)TKUHL Wrote: If I remember this correct I heard Dalton had one of the best QBR rating while under pressure? Not sure if that's true, just though I heard someone mention it during a game.

I don't know where to find the numbers, but I've heard Andy has had outstanding numbers against the blitz over the last couple years.

[TKUHL]

(03-13-2017, 11:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: That or the front office could actually spend high draft picks and/or money on a good center.  

Well the highest round a Center was drafted in the Marvin Lewis era is RD 4, not sure about the MB era. So I dont expect them to draft one early. Even in the 4th Toth might be there. I wish they would sign Mangold and draft Toth to groom for the short time Mangold has left but they don't show any signs of moving on from Bodine.

[TKUHL]

(03-14-2017, 12:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't know where to find the numbers, but I've heard Andy has had outstanding numbers against the blitz over the last couple years.

That might have been what I was thinking then. Lol if it was under pressure that would be every pass.

[Murdock2420]

(03-14-2017, 12:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't know where to find the numbers, but I've heard Andy has had outstanding numbers against the blitz over the last couple years.

I've seen that stat as well and I will try to find it, the issue is with the current line situation teams won't need to blitz to get pressure.

Andy seems to be good at seeing a blitz and knowing where to throw the ball, as in throw it to the area vacated by the blitzing player, but when a standard 4 man rush is driving the center back into the pocket...well that is an entirely different issue.

[coachmcneil71]

(03-13-2017, 02:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm not so sure coach.....I counted 10 seconds he had to hit Hogan in the back of the endzone during the AFCCG against the Steelers.  The Pats have a GREAT scheme, and one of the best line coaches in NFL history....so good, that after struggling in 2015 a bit, they brought him back out of retirement.

(03-13-2017, 02:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: The problem the last few years has been a deformed pocket from his center allowing tremendous pressure up the gut.  When the pocket is collapsed so quickly at the point that is supposed to be anchored from, it leads to trouble.  He could stand to get better at working the pocket, but he has improved at that quite a bit from 2011.  Bodine has just struggled.

(03-13-2017, 07:57 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on.  People make excuses when he has a poor outing or a poor season by saying "Brady doesn't like pressure in his face".  Great.  What QB does?  The point is, he almost never has to deal with it.  

I got absolutely murdered for even "mentioning Brady and Dalton in the same sentence", but I have said it many times:  when Dalton is kept clean, he picks teams apart.  

Can't disagree with anything here. I do think that Brady seems to be able to do more with less than many QB's. His oline was a bunch of youngins this year and they still won the SB. Still, scheme and coaching are huge!

Bottom line the Death Star runs like a well oiled machine while the Bengals run like my first car, a 76 Buick.


I think some QBs can do more with less. I don't necessarily think that Andy fits that mold. That said, with Bodine constantly in his lap and LDE always in his face it's tough to do a lot.
Hence, another reason that I want a beast RB...aka Dalvin,LF, or possibly even the woman beater at the right spot. An exceptional RB can make lemonade out of lemons.

Hill cost the team a playoff win and to my eyes is not the answer. Even when the line creates a hole for him to run through he usually hits the wrong lane, and once in the secondary he's a fumbling liability. Once again though, scheming is huge and this CS doesn't seem to be very good at it.

[TKUHL]

True about NE, hell I don't think they even have a player on offense that was a 1st or 2nd round pick.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-13-2017, 01:29 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Figured folks would parrot the "fast release" view. A fast release means nothing more than you get rid of the ball fast; anybody can do that. The question was more designed can Andy manipulate the pocket, buy himself and his receivers time. Quick release means jack when you need to let a play develop. Hell give me the ball and I guarantee I  can release quicker than Andy ever did.

But can anyone do that while still being a good/effective QB? No. That's why you had people like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady at the top of that list, too. It's not just throwing the ball away quickly, it's reading defenses quickly (and before the snap) and then progressing quickly through your reads, or knowing who should be open based off what the defense is showing you.

He's got a quick release, has had a yards per attempt over 7.0 and completion % over 64 the last three years.

You discount it as parroting, but by all means, go out there with your quicker release. I am sure you can do just as well since "anyone" can do it.

[bengalhoel]

(03-14-2017, 12:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't know where to find the numbers, but I've heard Andy has had outstanding numbers against the blitz over the last couple years.

According to Pff in 2015 he had a 112.5 Qb rating against the blitz. You have to pay for last year's info so I couldnt see it but he was great in 2015.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-13-2017, 10:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If this were 2013, I'd agree with you. I think he's been a + in the pocket since working with House.

2015 was his biggest leap in that department, and I didn't see much - if any - regression last year. I was proud of how he seemed unphased by the copious amounts of pressure.

Week 1 should have put that narrative to bed....sacked 7 times....366 yds....TD....no TOs.  By the end of the year...he was a bit squirrelly....but damn....who wouldn't be by that point?