Comp picks dictating FA approach

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  But "re-examined" should not mean "accept message board myth that is not supported by fact".

I'll give you a perfect example.  People here constantly cry about how the Bengals lose so many games because Marvin is too conservative.  But when I ask for examples of games we have lost because Marvin is too conservative the response I often get is "0-7" or "0-13" instead of an actual list of games we lost because he was too conservative.  I post statistics about where the Bengals rank as far as "throwing the ball with a lead in the second half".  I post examples of the Bengals and other teams losing games because they were so aggressive.  I post stats from games where Bill Belichick ran the ball consistently with a lead in the second half.  But none of this matters.  I guarantee that there will still be lots of postrs this year about how Marvin loses a bunch of games because he is too conservative and how he should be more like Belichick who never takes his foot off the gas.


So I am glad to "re-examine" any approach.  All I ask is that people use some sort of logical argument to support their position.

I haven't said a word about Marv being too conservative since you showed those numbers.  That said, logic says, if it's broken, fix it.  The Bengals need to find out what the root cause is here....and address it.  They are the professionals, they are the ones making millions.  Win a damn playoff game already.

One thing that seems to be lacking, from the outside looking in, is accountability.  There is so much secrecy surrounding this team, it's hard to get a read.  THAT is a big reason you see so much speculation on here.....what the hell else is there to go by?

[THE PISTONS]

(03-16-2017, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would I base my opinion on "net negative" when it has been positive for the last few years.

I honestly thought the bengals had a championship caliber team before Dalton went down in '15.  The '05 team, while not as good overall as the '15 team, was a threat to win any game they played.

I don't see what the teams from the '90's have to do with the teams of the last several years. 

People who act like nothing has changed in 26 years just have not paid attention.

We both see that they had a championship caliber team for a few years. I see it as squandered opportunity that they didn't win 1 playoff game over that span. You see it is a positive that they played well during the regular season.

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2017, 04:26 PM)Wyche Wrote:  Blow it up and get winners.  See, it really is kind of a simple concept.

If it is such a simple concept then why has no team in history turned over its entire roster and coaching staff to start over.

It is easy to say change, but what exactly are the details.  Change for the sake of change does not fix anything.  you have to identify the specific problems in order to improve them.  Otherwise you will probably change tonnew problems or just keep repeating the old ones.

(03-16-2017, 04:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: This shit of sticking with the status quo, isn't getting it done.

Then why are so many people squealing about all the recent turnover on the roster?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it is such a simple concept then why has no team in history turned over its entire roster and coaching staff to start over.

It is easy to say change, but what exactly are the details.  Change for the sake of change does not fix anything.  you have to identify the specific problems in order to improve them.  Otherwise you will probably change tonnew problems or just keep repeating the old ones.




Then why are so many people squealing about all the recent turnover on the roster?

I noted that the Bengals need to identify the root cause, and address it in another post, maybe the one you quoted.

Status quo, to me, is the FO, and the coaching staff.  We've had essentially three rosters during Marv's tenure, with the same results.  Mike Brown has seen countless rosters with even worse results prior to Marvin.

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2017, 04:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We both see that they had a championship caliber team for a few years. I see it as squandered opportunity that they didn't win 1 playoff game over that span. You see it is a positive that they played well during the regular season.

Actually I am capable of seeing as BOTH a squandered opportunity to be upset over and a good sign that they played well enough to make the playoffs.

Too bad so many people are limited and unable to see both sides like me.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-16-2017, 04:05 PM)Wyche Wrote: I mean.....there was no hyperbole between you and I there....you said if something doesn't work for 30 years, maybe it's time to try something else.  I noted that it really is that simple.  Like.....I don't know, hire some more freakin scouts,  hire a freakin GM, shit can some lifers....you know, simple.

I may not have been clear, I did not mean to imply there was.  You and I are on the same page.  If you've been following a system for three decades without achieving your ultimate goal (assuming Wild Card losses are not that goal) then one would logically assume you would make radical changes in philosophy and approach.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 04:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually I am capable of seeing as BOTH a squandered opportunity to be upset over and a good sign that they played well enough to make the playoffs.

Too bad so many people are limited and unable to see both sides like me.

One reason for the over the top backlash this particular year over roster turnover is the perception of falsehoods.  A few years ago, they said they were saving money to extend Zeitler, Marvin Jones, etc.....then they didn't extend them, because they didn't "value" a position, or were "close".....and still didn't sign any real outside help.  People have memories, and have been waiting on the FO to honor its word.  It didn't.  People are pissed, no one likes being lied to.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-16-2017, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it is such a simple concept then why has no team in history turned over its entire roster and coaching staff to start over.

It is easy to say change, but what exactly are the details.  Change for the sake of change does not fix anything.  you have to identify the specific problems in order to improve them.  Otherwise you will probably change tonnew problems or just keep repeating the old ones.




Then why are so many people squealing about all the recent turnover on the roster?

Because people are seeing the turnover in the form of the good players leaving, not improving the weaknesses. The fans want to see the turnover with the lower performing players and/or "problem children", e.g. Rey Maualuga, Adam Jones, Russell Bodine, Michael Johnson.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 04:55 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I may not have been clear, I did not mean to imply there was.  You and I are on the same page.  If you've been following a system for three decades without achieving your ultimate goal (assuming Wild Card losses are not that goal) then one would logically assume you would make radical changes in philosophy and approach.

No, you were clear, I wasn't in my response....I was just reiterating what you were saying, while pointing out that there was no hyperbole involved in our discussion.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 04:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Because people are seeing the turnover in the form of the good players leaving, not improving the weaknesses. The fans want to see the turnover with the lower performing players and/or "problem children", e.g. Rey Maualuga, Adam Jones, Russell Bodine, Michael Johnson.

Don't forget we were told they were saving money for them.....only to hear this bullshit about having 1/3 of the money we actually do, and so on and so forth.

[Bengalholic]

(03-16-2017, 04:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: I haven't said a word about Marv being too conservative since you showed those numbers.  That said, logic says, if it's broken, fix it.  The Bengals need to find out what the root cause is here....and address it.  They are the professionals, they are the ones making millions.  Win a damn playoff game already.

One thing that seems to be lacking, from the outside looking in, is lack of accountability.  There is so much secrecy surrounding this team, it's hard to get a read.  THAT is a big reason you see so much speculation on here.....what the hell else is there to go by?

(03-16-2017, 04:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it is such a simple concept then why has no team in history turned over its entire roster and coaching staff to start over.

It is easy to say change, but what exactly are the details.  Change for the sake of change does not fix anything.  you have to identify the specific problems in order to improve them.  Otherwise you will probably change tonnew problems or just keep repeating the old ones.

In my opinion, and yes I know I'm just a 'message board poster'...there are 3 things that the Bengals could try, which they haven't to this point, that would definitely be a change in approach and that could 'potentially' lead to better overall results:

Mike retires as Bengals President and gives Katie the opportunity to freely run the franchise.

Hire an experienced/respected football person (from outside the organization) to be a true GM.

Take a chance in free agency (when needed) as far as signing a top tier player now and then. 

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2017, 04:48 PM)Wyche Wrote:  We've had essentially three rosters during Marv's tenure, with the same results.

I believe that one (and possibly 2) of those rosters would have bee successful in the postseason if they had kept their starting QBs healthy.

I certainly would not have complained if they had let Marvin go.  But I don't believe it is impossible for us to win a Championship with him as HC.  He has won a Super bowl before.  He has seen how has seen how it is done.  Over the last few years he has started beating the better teams in the league.  Almost all of his playoff losses have been to better teams.  The '14 loss was a nightmare, but other than that the other team was usually better.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 05:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In my opinion, and yes I know I'm just a 'message board poster'...there are 3 things that the Bengals could try, which they haven't to this point, that would definitely be a change in approach and that could 'potentially' lead to better overall results:

Mike retires as Bengals President and gives Katie the opportunity to freely run the franchise.

Hire an experienced/respected football person (from outside the organization) to be a true GM.

Take a chance in free agency (when needed) as far as signing a top tier player now and then. 

'holic....that's truly all I've wanted to see done for the better part of a decade.  Maybe send some lifers packing.....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-16-2017, 05:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I believe that one (and possibly 2) of those rosters would have bee successful in the postseason if they had kept their starting QBs healthy.

I certainly would not have complained if they had let Marvin go.  But I don't believe it is impossible for us to win a Championship with him as HC.  He has won a Super bowl before.  He has seen how has seen how it is done.  Over the last few years he has started beating the better teams in the league.  Almost all of his playoff losses have been to better teams.  The '14 loss was a nightmare, but other than that the other team was usually better.

.....and that's where your GM comes in with giving you the pieces to complete the puzzle, instead of the annual dumpster dive.  I go back and forth on Marvin in my head......on one hand, I want to lay it all solely at his feet, while acknowledging his deliverance.  On the other, I think...."what if he's truly being handcuffed"?  As I alluded to earlier, there's so much secrecy as to who actually does what in this side show, it's hard to get a handle on just who is (mostly) to blame.

[Bengalholic]

(03-16-2017, 05:14 PM)Wyche Wrote: 'holic....that's truly all I've wanted to see done for the better part of a decade.  Maybe send some lifers packing.....

I think that's honestly where the majority of the frustration in the fanbase comes from. There's no good reason why these things can't or shouldn't happen...except that one very stubborn old man refuses to let it happen.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

.....however, it is SO MUCH MORE FUN to come here and rake their asses over the coals!  Seriously, it's an escape, entertainment......and when your squad is doing what you feel is dumb shit, this place is a good avenue to vent....people often lose sight of that.  It's a message board for Bengals fans.....to celebrate, b***h, talk some smack, and discuss....opinions.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-16-2017, 05:20 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I think that's honestly where the majority of the frustration in the fanbase comes from. There's no good reason why these things can't or shouldn't happen...except that one very stubborn old man refuses to let it happen.

Mike Brown's stubborn-ness when he tries to persuade players with "I won't guarantee you big money, but we honor the length of our contracts, so in a way, it's all guaranteed!"

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-16-2017, 05:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....and that's where your GM comes in with giving you the pieces to complete the puzzle, instead of the annual dumpster dive.  I go back and forth on Marvin in my head......on one hand, I want to lay it all solely at his feet, while acknowledging his deliverance.  On the other, I think...."what if he's truly being handcuffed"?  As I alluded to earlier, there's so much secrecy as to who actually does what in this side show, it's hard to get a handle on just who is (mostly) to blame.

Agreed,

As much as I dislike Marvin - as our HC. His ability to run the show has been and always will be hampered by our CHEAP GM !

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-16-2017, 05:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In my opinion, and yes I know I'm just a 'message board poster'...there are 3 things that the Bengals could try, which they haven't to this point, that would definitely be a change in approach and that could 'potentially' lead to better overall results:

Mike retires as Bengals President and gives Katie the opportunity to freely run the franchise.

Hire an experienced/respected football person (from outside the organization) to be a true GM.

Take a chance in free agency (when needed) as far as signing a top tier player now and then. 

I completely agree with bringing in a respected GM from outside the organization.  As to free agency, while it would be amazing to see them take a chance on top talent, even if they approached free agency with the mindset of improving each year.  All of that would be a big step forward.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-16-2017, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Can we all please stop with this little game where you pick a player or coach with a good reputation and try to claim he agrees with you? 

Whit just left the Bengals who had made the playoffs 6 of the last 8 years for a team that has not even had a single winning season in 13 years, and you claim he left because he wants to play for a team that is serious about winning a Super Bowl? 

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

Whit said he loves the Bengals.  he respects them so much that he wants to retire as a Bengal.  Yet you cite him as a fellow hater that claims the Bengals do not even want to win a Super Bowl.

You are entitled to your opinion.  But this little game of claiming that guys like Whit agree with you is just silly.

I know Whit wouldn't be agreeing with you Fred. He wanted a Superbowl here.

There is no question about this. He pretty much said he wanted to see what the FO was doing with Zeitler and Dre.

This is a big damn hint for you that you don't get.

MB as others have said may want to win but his way or the highway has not worked and changes need to be made.

Whit does love the Bengals, i do too. I will say i agree with him all i want and it is not silly.

On the other hand to agree with everything that MB, the FO and the bad coaches do is very silly.