Brandon LaFell IS the Answer at Wide Receiver

[fredtoast]

The #2 WR position has never been "the key" to any great offense or Super Bowl winning team.

If the Bengals upgrade at the #2 WR position it will have very little overall effect. We will not suddenly be throwing the ball for 5000 yards a season.

[Jpoore]

(03-26-2017, 04:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The #2 WR position has never been "the key" to any great offense or Super Bowl winning team.

If the Bengals upgrade at the #2 WR position it will have very little overall effect.  We will not suddenly be throwing the ball for 5000 yards a season.

so reggie wayne had little effect on the colts offense?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-26-2017, 06:20 PM)Jpoore Wrote: so reggie wayne had little effect on the colts offense?

Sure did. That is some broad brush talk from Freddy boy.

[Housh]

(03-26-2017, 04:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The #2 WR position has never been "the key" to any great offense or Super Bowl winning team.

If the Bengals upgrade at the #2 WR position it will have very little overall effect.  We will not suddenly be throwing the ball for 5000 yards a season.

I almost made a thread asking how teams with 2 dominant WRs fare historically in the superbowl.

But the way you phrased your statement was surely intentional and very contradictory. Your statement was "The #2 WR position has never been "the key" to any great offense or Super Bowl winning team." That's one of those blanket statements you throw out ever so often that's so purposely manipulated you cant be wrong.

Of course no #2 WR has ever been key to a superbowl winning team because not one team in the history of the superbowl has come into that game and told themselves "Were gonna ignore our best WR and feature our 2nd best guy for no reason at all."

Also we have to look at the history of teams to even make it to the superbowl that had 2 great WRs. And these just aren't teams where the #2 WR had a lucky game in the SB. These are teams that INVESTED in their #2 WR and ended up winning.

Recent memory is:

Cardinals VS Steelers(Win Hines Ward/ Santonio Holmes)
Packers(Win Greg Jennings/Jordy Nelson) VS Steelers
Giants(Win Cruz/Nicks) VS Pats,
Ravens(Win Torrey Smith/Anquan Bolden) VS 49ers,
Seahawks(Win Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate) VS Denver,
Denver(Win Demarrious Thomas/ Emmanual Sanders) VS Panthers
Giants (Win Amani Toomer and Plaxico Burress) VS Patriots
Colts VS Bears(Win Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison)

This list took minimal work and I took no interest into whether both receivers had good games or not. I just looked at the recent past SB winners and if they had 2 great WRs going into that game. The only teams that have consistely challenged for titles in the past 10 years without a solid WR 1 and WR 2 has been the Patriots and if you want to add them the Steelers, depending on your opinion of Hines Ward and Antwan Randle El.




So while NO stats say that a great #2 WR is the KEY to winning a superbowl, a very quick and shallow look at the last couple years of winners supports a claim that having 2 solid WRs is a NEEDED PART of building a superbowl team. Once again the Patriots are the only team in recent history to challenge for a title without 2 great WRs.

P.S A lot of those teams that lost also had 2 GREAT receivers. Maybe theres something to having a good WR core that needs to be researched.


Double P.S That list also shows that getting solid QB play in the playoffs basically guarantees a shot in any playoff game. I think in most of those games the QB who had the better game took home the win for his team. In other cases BOTH QBs had great games but it came down to who had the ball last. But in EVERY case if the QB played bad, then the team lost.



And lets just be honest.....Lafell aint gonna cut it at #2. He disappeared when AJ Green went down.

[WeezyBengal]

(03-26-2017, 06:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure did. That is some broad brush talk from Freddy boy.

If Marvin Jones comes back on this team it won't all of the sudden make this team a super bowl contender. Hell, I don't even know how much better it makes the overall offense. 

Now add an above average offensive lineman or defensive lineman and it's a different story. 

[WeezyBengal]

(03-26-2017, 07:53 PM)Housh Wrote: I almost made a thread asking how teams with 2 dominant WRs fare historically in the superbowl.

But the way you phrased your statement was surely intentional and very contradictory. Your statement was "The #2 WR position has never been "the key" to any great offense or Super Bowl winning team." That's one of those blanket statements you throw out ever so often that's so purposely manipulated you cant be wrong.

Of course no #2 WR has ever been key to a superbowl winning team because not one team in the history of the superbowl has come into that game and told themselves "Were gonna ignore our best WR and feature our 2nd best guy for no reason at all."

Also we have to look at the history of teams to even make it to the superbowl that had 2 great WRs. And these just aren't teams where the #2 WR had a lucky game in the SB. These are teams that INVESTED in their #2 WR and ended up winning.

Recent memory is:

Cardinals VS Steelers(Win Hines Ward/ Santonio Holmes)
Packers(Win Greg Jennings/Jordy Nelson) VS Steelers
Giants(Win Cruz/Nicks) VS Pats,
Ravens(Win Torrey Smith/Anquan Bolden) VS 49ers,
Seahawks(Win Doug Baldwin/Golden Tate) VS Denver,
Denver(Win Demarrious Thomas/ Emmanual Sanders) VS Panthers
Giants (Win Amani Toomer and Plaxico Burress) VS Patriots
Colts VS Bears(Win Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison)

This list took minimal work and I took no interest into whether both receivers had good games or not. I just looked at the recent past SB winners and if they had 2 great WRs going into that game. The only teams that have consistely challenged for titles in the past 10 years without a solid WR 1 and WR 2 has been the Patriots and if you want to add them the Steelers, depending on your opinion of Hines Ward and Antwan Randle El.




So while NO stats say that a great #2 WR is the KEY to winning a superbowl, a very quick and shallow look at the last couple years of winners supports a claim that having 2 solid WRs is a NEEDED PART of building a superbowl team. Once again the Patriots are the only team in recent history to challenge for a title without 2 great WRs.

P.S A lot of those teams that lost also had 2 GREAT receivers. Maybe theres something to having a good WR core that needs to be researched.


Double P.S That list also shows that getting solid QB play in the playoffs basically guarantees a shot in any playoff game. I think in most of those games the QB who had the better game took home the win for his team. In other cases BOTH QBs had great games but it came down to who had the ball last. But in EVERY case if the QB played bad, then the team lost.



And lets just be honest.....Lafell aint gonna cut it at #2. He disappeared when AJ Green went down.

OK...So compare what Lafell did last year stat wise to all of the number 2 wide receivers you just listed. Im sure he compares to them pretty equally if not better.  

[Housh]

Now theres been plenty of teams that had 2 great WRs.


But if we draft Mike Williams I think we can be one of the only teams EVER to have 2 ELITE WRS at the same time.

Im talkin TO and Jerry Rice type shit

[Housh]

(03-26-2017, 08:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: OK...So compare what Lafell did last year stat wise to all of the number 2 wide receivers you just listed. Im sure he compares to them pretty equally if not better.  

Im sorry but im not gonna use stats for this man. I don't need stats to know that Lafell isn't as good a WR as guys like Reggie Wayne, Anquan Bolden, and Jordy Nelson.


Ok we get it. Brandon Lafell is a good number 2 WR in the NFL and the signing was a solid signing. But lets not act like it made us any better at all. And lets definitely not act like he balled TF out when Green got injured. SOMEONE was gonna HAVE to catch passes when Eifert and AJ were out. He was the guy Dalton was looking at. He stepped up and became a reliable target but lets not act like he showed flashes of greatness. Because he didn't.

The Lafell train is a good train up until the solid receiver stop. Soon as you ride the train too long and start saying "One of the best #2" or "Capable of holding down the #2 spot for a playoff team" then I gotta get TF off

[Housh]

(03-26-2017, 08:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: OK...So compare what Lafell did last year stat wise to all of the number 2 wide receivers you just listed. Im sure he compares to them pretty equally if not better.  

I just checked the games and up until week 10(AJ Green healthy) Lafell only had 3 good games and 3 TDs. So basically when he was the #2 he wasn't doing shit. Then AJ went down and more passes came his way so his receptions went up and Eifert even went down so he was basically alone and still managed to only get 3 more TDs the rest of the season.

Dude was good but the board needs to stop acting like hes good enough to be #2 or that he played better than what he did this season. Dude was a reliable catch THATS IT. He didn't change the game and he didn't make Andys job easier. We could've plugged in ANY WR when Green and Eifert were out and they would've done the same thiings Lafell did 

[eoxyod]

(03-24-2017, 04:51 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Tell me again, I forget sometimes. Which team had the best WR in the game last year? Which team won the SB with a bunch of late round WRs? One of which was a college QB.

Usually, you post good stuff eox. This is a very thin post at best. I do agree about Davis though.

I never said we should invest a ton of resources into WR unless need be or where the value of the player outweighs the value of the position, which you seem to agree with me on

[eoxyod]

(03-24-2017, 03:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. I wouldn't say "pointless". There's more to it than stats, but production is production. I assume by dynamic, you mean speed. I addressed that with jj22.
Dynamic as in drawing 7 DPIs for 111 yards
2. That's just being silly. Did anyone pay attention to Jones with Detroit last year? It was a total disappointment considering what they paid.
New system with different play style. Jones fit our system well and had good chemistry with Dalton. That will only grow with Stafford there
3. Calling LaFell a disappointment is a bit much. For a 3rd round pick he's produced almost 5000 yards and 26 TDs by age 30. He's only missed 8% of his career games compared to 26% for Jones. He was a key player in a championship run while Jones has yet to win a playoff game. He just produced the best season by a Bengals #2 WR since Housh.
That's a hard comparison to take with the fact Jones has had the unfortunate life of being on the Bengals, and LaFell had his success with the GOAT
4. Can't disagree there. 
5. LaFell will turn 31 this year. A 2 year deal with an easy out is pretty standard considering he's not a star.
So there's no long term benefit, in which we still have to hope for luck with a second option through the draft if we won't invest a decent resource into it.

I'm not making this an argument of Jones vs LaFell as much as I am making an argument that an invested resource in a young WR is better off now than later. The team should be proactive and search for a replacement when the situation allows for it. Now who knows where the Bengals value some guys in terms of draft grade, but when saying "If the other top options are gone" ignores that, if available (probably not at this point I feel like), a player like Corey Davis is 95% chance the best player on the board for the team, and a necessary addition

[Brownshoe]

I really like LaFell. I think he's a good receiver for us. I always thought that he could replace the production of Jones. Even said it before we even signed him last year. We need to draft a receiver, but not this year. LaFell, Boyd, and Core are enough to go with Green and Eifert if they are healthy. I honestly think that if our receiving core is healthy they would be better than our 2015 receiving core. I think that Boyd is going to step up as our #2 receiver next year anyways, so LaFell would be leaps and bounds better than Sanu.

[fredtoast]

(03-26-2017, 06:20 PM)Jpoore Wrote: so reggie wayne had little effect on the colts offense?

(03-26-2017, 06:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure did. That is some broad brush talk from Freddy boy.

Yeah, Manning and Marvin Harrison had nothing to do with that offense.  They would have been helpless without Reggie Wayne.

[fredtoast]

(03-26-2017, 08:19 PM)Housh Wrote: I just checked the games and up until week 10(AJ Green healthy) Lafell only had 3 good games and 3 TDs. So basically when he was the #2 he wasn't doing shit. 

And neither were most other #2 WRs.

You can't compare LaFell to #1 WR numbers and then claim he sucked as the #2 WR.  After 10 games LaFell was on pace to have 672 receiving yards.  That would have ranked 52nd in the league among WRs at the end of the year.  Not bad considering our #1 WR was leading the league in receiving yards.  No other #2 WR was going to put up huge numbers playing across from Green.  

Also the fact that he did well as the #1 WR after Green was injured is a GOOD thing, because most #2 WRs get shut down completely if they face the defense keying on them as the #1 WR.

Even if we upgraded at #2 WR it would not have a huge effect con our offense.  Green would just have fewer receiving yards.  We would not suddenly start throwing for 5000 yards a season.

[Housh]

(03-27-2017, 08:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And neither were most other #2 WRs.

You can't compare LaFell to #1 WR numbers and then claim he sucked as the #2 WR.  After 10 games LaFell was on pace to have 672 receiving yards.  That would have ranked 52nd in the league among WRs at the end of the year.  Not bad considering our #1 WR was leading the league in receiving yards.  No other #2 WR was going to put up huge numbers playing across from Green.  

Also the fact that he did well as the #1 WR after Green was injured is a GOOD thing, because most #2 WRs get shut down completely if they face the defense keying on them as the #1 WR.

Even if we upgraded at #2 WR it would not have a huge effect con our offense.  Green would just have fewer receiving yards.  We would not suddenly start throwing for 5000 yards a season.

Adding a great number 2 would improve redzone and 3rd down percentages day one they step on the field.


Thats a huge effect to me

[Beaker]

I think LaFell did fine for us, and did post similar numbers to Marvin Jones as a #2 WR. But the difference was that Jones was a deep threat and had a different effect on how defenses had to account for him. LaFell does not have the speed that Jones had, and is therefore more of a possession type WR, not a defense buster. Marvin Jones disrupted defenses, LaFell does not. We do have another WR with speed in Cody Core,, the coaches just haven't put him in enough as he is gaining experience to provide that deep threat we are lacking beyond AJ right now.

[fredtoast]

(03-27-2017, 10:27 AM)Beaker Wrote: I think LaFell did fine for us, and did post similar numbers to Marvin Jones as a #2 WR. But the difference was that Jones was a deep threat and had a different effect on how defenses had to account for him. LaFell does not have the speed that Jones had, and is therefore more of a possession type WR, not a defense buster. Marvin Jones disrupted defenses, LaFell does not. We do have another WR with speed in Cody Core,, the coaches just haven't put him in enough as he is gaining experience to provide that deep threat we are lacking beyond AJ right now.

I don't think the defense played any different with Jones at the #2 than they did with LaFell.  Teams give the help to AJ no matter who our #2 WR is.  So the only difference is which player is better able to exploit the single coverage.

LaFell and Jones seemed to do about the same to me.

[fredtoast]

I want to make it clear that I do not think LaFell is an elite WR. I just don't think an elite #2 WR would make that big of a difference. It would obviously improve our offense some to have a second elite WR, but the resources needed to acquire one could be used to make a HUGE difference at a different position.

The Bengals just are not going to turn into a team that throws it almost every down even if we do have a second elite WR.

When TJ and Chad were both putting up big numbers we had almost zero contribution to the passing game from our TEs. TJ played a lot in the slot in 3 WR sets and he did what our TEs are supposed to do now.

[WeezyBengal]

(03-26-2017, 08:19 PM)Housh Wrote: I just checked the games and up until week 10(AJ Green healthy) Lafell only had 3 good games and 3 TDs. So basically when he was the #2 he wasn't doing shit. Then AJ went down and more passes came his way so his receptions went up and Eifert even went down so he was basically alone and still managed to only get 3 more TDs the rest of the season.

Dude was good but the board needs to stop acting like hes good enough to be #2 or that he played better than what he did this season. Dude was a reliable catch THATS IT. He didn't change the game and he didn't make Andys job easier. We could've plugged in ANY WR when Green and Eifert were out and they would've done the same thiings Lafell did 

So we are just going to completely discredit his production because AJ Green got hurt? That makes zero sense. 

If anything, his production after AJ got hurt should be looked at in a more positive manor. He showed he could get open and produce when he's the guy...especially when a teams best corner is covering him. 

[WeezyBengal]

(03-26-2017, 08:08 PM)Housh Wrote: Im sorry but im not gonna use stats for this man. I don't need stats to know that Lafell isn't as good a WR as guys like Reggie Wayne, Anquan Bolden, and Jordy Nelson.


Ok we get it. Brandon Lafell is a good number 2 WR in the NFL and the signing was a solid signing. But lets not act like it made us any better at all. And lets definitely not act like he balled TF out when Green got injured. SOMEONE was gonna HAVE to catch passes when Eifert and AJ were out. He was the guy Dalton was looking at. He stepped up and became a reliable target but lets not act like he showed flashes of greatness. Because he didn't.

The Lafell train is a good train up until the solid receiver stop. Soon as you ride the train too long and start saying "One of the best #2" or "Capable of holding down the #2 spot for a playoff team" then I gotta get TF off

You dont want to look up stats because you know youre wrong. 

Aquan Boldin's stats during the Raven's 2012 Super Bowl season: 
65 receptions
921 yards
4 TDs


Brandon Lafells stats from last year: 
64 receptions 
865 yards
6 TDs


In 2014 with the Pats Lafell had 950 yards receiving and 7 TDs. So, the AJ Greene injury theory doesn't make sense here either. He is more than capable of being a number 2 wide out. 

Not sure why so many of you refuse to look at numbers. You keep judging him based on what you want though....whatever that may be.