Today's Enquirer Article

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2015, 01:26 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Seattle turned the ball over 31% of the time in the game against the Packers and still won.  That said, it is clearly a huge problem made even bigger by the fact that our defense doesn't generate any to balance out the +/-

And Seattle also lost a game to the Cardinals where Palmer threw 4 INTs but still went on to win the Super Bowl and the Bengals beat the Ravens when Dalton threw 4 INTs and so on and so forth.  Again, we lost the game where the defense spotted the offense 7 points so I'm still not confident the offense would know what to do with extra shots afforded by a turnover-generating defense.

[*bfine32*]

(07-28-2015, 01:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm still not confident the offense would know what to do with extra shots afforded by a turnover-generating defense.

Apparently give it back 1 time out of 3

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 01:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Again, we lost the game where the defense spotted the offense 7 points so I'm still not confident the offense would know what to do with extra shots afforded by a turnover-generating defense.

Don't forget, in that game our offense had 9 meaningful drives (10 drives total but 1 was a kneel down to end the 1st half). They produced more than 32 yards on TWO of those drives. They produced 17 or less yards on FIVE of those drives. The other 2 drives were of 25 and 32 yards. No points for the entire offense, 2 FGs though, woooo!

I have this strange feeling that if the defense generated the multitude of turnovers that the biased posters come to expect, it would have led to not much more than some extra incompletions on the stat sheet and more palms on the foreheads of Bengals' fans.

The offense has been abysmally, historically awful. The defense has actually been solid in a couple of the games and then mediocre or worse at times as well. Those that want to put on the spin and make it "equal blame" for both sides of the ball are just taking all objectivity out of this and posting with their extreme emotions. There is nothing equal about how the offense and defense have played in the playoff games.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 02:10 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Don't forget, in that game our offense had 9 meaningful drives (10 drives total but 1 was a kneel down to end the 1st half). They produced more than 32 yards on TWO of those drives. They produced 17 or less yards on FIVE of those drives. The other 2 drives were of 25 and 32 yards. No points for the entire offense, 2 FGs though, woooo!

I have this strange feeling that if the defense generated the multitude of turnovers that the biased posters come to expect, it would have led to not much more than some extra incompletions on the stat sheet and more palms on the foreheads of Bengals' fans.

The offense has been abysmally, historically awful. The defense has actually been solid in a couple of the games and then mediocre or worse at times as well. Those that want to put on the spin and make it "equal blame" for both sides of the ball are just taking all objectivity out of this and posting with their extreme emotions. There is nothing equal about how the offense and defense have played in the playoff games.

I said nothing about "equal blame".  Just that I would expect a defense supposedly as good as ours to generate defensive pressure by forcing turnovers.

Even if the offense improves, we wouldn't go very far with our very vanilla defense. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2015, 02:21 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I said nothing about "equal blame".  Just that I would expect a defense supposedly as good as ours to generate defensive pressure by forcing turnovers.

Even if the offense improves, we wouldn't go very far with our very vanilla defense. 

Our entire team devolves during the playoffs, the problem is that our defense goes from top 5-10 to the high teens or mid 20s BUT Andy Dalton turns into Blaine Gabbert and the the 2013 Jaguars.  Actually, they were good for more than 15 points a game, so we aren't quite to that level.

Do you think Blaine Gabbert and the 2013 Jaguars offense could have won in the playoffs if they got to choose their defense? I say no because even turnovers can't cure an offense that just wants to turn the ball over and/or punt.

[McC]

Seems to me the lack of pressure on the QB and failure against the run are bigger problems than lack of turnovers. Like someone else said, you can't assume turnovers. You get pressure on the QB and stop the run, you can win without creating TO's.

Of the two, the offense is definitely more to blame, though if you have a perfect storm of defense playing below par and the offense giving the ball away, you are truly screwed.

If the offense is turning the ball over a third of the time, you had better be scoring at least a third of the time or you have no chance. And, of course, we all know that all too well.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 02:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Our entire team devolves during the playoffs, the problem is that our defense goes from top 5-10 to the high teens or mid 20s BUT Andy Dalton turns into Blaine Gabbert and the the 2013 Jaguars.  Actually, they were good for more than 15 points a game, so we aren't quite to that level.

Do you think Blaine Gabbert and the 2013 Jaguars offense could have won in the playoffs if they got to choose their defense?  I say no because even turnovers can't cure an offense that just wants to turn the ball over and/or punt.

I somewhat disagree.  I feel like that fumble by Gio in the redzone in the SD game was an absolute killer.  We score there I think the entire complexion of that game changes.  San Diego's D caused that fumble to occur.  It probably won their team the game.  

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 02:21 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I said nothing about "equal blame".  Just that I would expect a defense supposedly as good as ours to generate defensive pressure by forcing turnovers.

Even if the offense improves, we wouldn't go very far with our very vanilla defense. 

Your second statement isn't even slightly true.

If the offense wasn't trying to give away the games, this team would be 2 - 2 at the very worst instead of 0 - 4 in the Wild Card round over the last 4 seasons.

2012 and 2013 would very likely be in the W column if the offense wasn't god awful at gaining yards in 2012 and turning the ball over in 2013.

You just have some odd expectations. As others have said as well, it's sort of crazy to have the expectation of your defense to generate turnovers as you'd like them to. It is, however, pretty normal to expect your offense to put some yards and points on the stat sheets.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 02:33 PM)McC Wrote: Seems to me the lack of pressure on the QB and failure against the run are bigger problems than lack of turnovers.  Like someone else said, you can't assume turnovers.  You get pressure on the QB and stop the run, you can win without creating TO's.

Of the two, the offense is definitely more to blame, though if you have a perfect storm of defense playing below par and the offense giving the ball away, you are truly screwed.

If the offense is turning the ball over a third of the time, you had better be scoring at least a third of the time or you have no chance.  And, of course, we all know that all too well.

I agree.  As a fan of defensive football, I feel like we just get gobbled up on defense in the playoffs. 

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 02:40 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Your second statement isn't even slightly true.

If the offense wasn't trying to give away the games, this team would be 2 - 2 at the very worst instead of 0 - 4 in the Wild Card round over the last 4 seasons.

2012 and 2013 would very likely be in the W column if the offense wasn't god awful at gaining yards in 2012 and turning the ball over in 2013.

You just have some odd expectations. As others have said as well, it's sort of crazy to have the expectation of your defense to generate turnovers as you'd like them to. It is, however, pretty normal to expect your offense to put some yards and points on the stat sheets.

We have 2 turnovers in 6 games and we give up on average 171 rushing yards.  That isn't all that impressive given the numbers this team has put up in the regular season.  It is a regression.  

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2015, 02:42 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: We have 2 turnovers in 6 games and we give up on average 171 rushing yards.  That isn't all that impressive given the numbers this team has put up in the regular season.  It is a regression.  

Perhaps I'm biased by I think that is more indicative of an opponent being afforded the luxury of playing "run out the clock" football all of the second half than anything else.  We get outscored like a zillion to 3 in the second half and only once did we have the lead going into the half (and it was only 3 points) so I can see why our opponents aren't exactly having a hard time grinding out the win and running up the numbers on our defense.

I haven't looked too far into the opponents playcalling, but does the 171 yards rushing mean they are just getting 6 yards per carry all game or is it more likely they get ahead, we turn it over, we have to pass the entire second half and either turn it over or knock 30 seconds off the clock and give them the chance to run 3+ running plays over and over until the game ends?

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 02:42 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: We have 2 turnovers in 6 games and we give up on average 171 rushing yards.  That isn't all that impressive given the numbers this team has put up in the regular season.  It is a regression.  

It isn't all that impressive if you aren't willing to look at the games more in depth, such as checking out the drive-by-drive and play-by-play of each game.

Just taking the averages without any other context skews things quite a bit. Unfortunately, whether you look at the big picture or extremely in depth, the offense still looks like shit no matter what.

You can hold onto your "2 turnovers in 6 games" stat that you bring up in every other post you make, but not generating turnovers doesn't automatically equate to poor defensive play. It just shows how much you really know about the defensive side of the game to cling to something that shouldn't be expected in these games.

Why do you expect so many turnovers to bring it up constantly yet you don't harp on the offense for not, ya know, gaining enough yards to do anything???

Defense - Can still be good without generating turnovers
Offense - Can't be good if you don't generate yardage

That's an awfully big difference between the two that you conveniently keep ignoring and not caring about whenever others bring it up.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 02:58 PM)djs7685 Wrote: It isn't all that impressive if you aren't willing to look at the games more in depth, such as checking out the drive-by-drive and play-by-play of each game.

Just taking the averages without any other context skews things quite a bit. Unfortunately, whether you look at the big picture or extremely in depth, the offense still looks like shit no matter what.

You can hold onto your "2 turnovers in 6 games" stat that you bring up in every other post you make, but not generating turnovers doesn't automatically equate to poor defensive play. It just shows how much you really know about the defensive side of the game to cling to something that shouldn't be expected in these games.

Why do you expect so many turnovers to bring it up constantly yet you don't harp on the offense for not, ya know, gaining enough yards to do anything???

Defense - Can still be good without generating turnovers
Offense - Can't be good if you don't generate yardage

That's an awfully big difference between the two that you conveniently keep ignoring and not caring about whenever others bring it up.

In 6 playoff games under Lewis the QB has been sacked a total of 19 times for a loss of 117 yards.

On the other hand, our defense has generated 5 for a loss of 27 yards.

No biggie.  

[BengalChris]

(07-28-2015, 09:45 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: The discussion was on why the Bengals have been getting blown out in second halves of the 4 playoff games and I found these statistics to be interesting:




http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/07/28/why-have-bengals-been-battered-second-half--playoff-games/30731653/

I've always said it would be helpful if the vaunted defense that seems to be the reason we make the playoffs every year would be able to generate turnovers, which are critical in playoff games.  Especially given how bad we have been in turning the ball over ourselves.  Also, why have we been so reliant on the passing game if they don't trust Dalton?  Is it because they've trusted the running game even less?  

The opponents in the playoffs are all good teams. No ******* allowed.

To me, the Bengals are a bubble playoff team, barely good enough to get in (as indicated by them never getting a bye) but not good enough to do much of anything once they arrive.

Last year we saw them lose badly to NE, Indy and Pittsburgh in the regular season, while taking care of the Ravens and Denver. That was the AFC playoff crowd. Only the win over Denver was convincing. They had to come from behind in both Ravens games. The Bengals just plain weren't even in the NE and Indy games or the second Pittsburgh game.

Almost everyone and his 5th from cousin from Mars has come to realize that Lewis' in-game adjustments are completely inadequate, if they even exist at all.

[Joelist]

(07-28-2015, 03:13 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The opponents in the playoffs are all good teams. No ******* allowed.

To me, the Bengals are a bubble playoff team, barely good enough to get in (as indicated by them never getting a bye) but not good enough to do much of anything once they arrive.

Last year we saw them lose badly to NE, Indy and Pittsburgh in the regular season, while taking care of the Ravens and Denver. That was the AFC playoff crowd. Only the win over Denver was convincing. They had to come from behind in both Ravens games. The Bengals just plain weren't even in the NE and Indy games or the second Pittsburgh game.

Almost everyone and his 5th from cousin from Mars has come to realize that Lewis' in-game adjustments are completely inadequate, if they even exist at all.

The problems are team wide:

Offense:

 - Bad ball security
 - Weird play selection
 - Failure to control line of scrimmage

Defense:

 - Can't stop the run
 - No pass rush

Note that the issues on both sides have a common thread - in all four games we got blown off the ball on both lines. Now the 2014 game was a mess from the start when we were running Burkhead out there as a WR and lost Hill by halftime to boot. But even there we saw the same problem of both lines getting owned by the opposition. 

On defense we need to step it up on the DL big time - if we can't get pressure then at least we have to stone the run. On offense (remember this is talking about the line) at least we need to give enough time for short throws and open holes for the RB. 

The weird play selection (like the deliberate non-use of Green for an entire half in 2012) is coaching. The turnover problems go to players needing to be sharp - QB needs to be careful for defenders trying to jump routes and not sail the ball and receivers have to run their routes properly and be in the correct position. Backs have to hang on to the ball no matter what and so on. 

Ultimately this goes back on the coaches a lot as many of these issues go back to proper game preparation. It also goes back on both lines as if the lines do their jobs the rest falls into place more. 

[djs7685]

(07-28-2015, 03:12 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: In 6 playoff games under Lewis the QB has been sacked a total of 19 times for a loss of 117 yards.

On the other hand, our defense has generated 5 for a loss of 27 yards.

No biggie.  

How many players are still here from the 2005 or hell, even the 2009 playoff game that you're throwing in here?

Again, you just want to look at the broad picture without going game by game because then you wouldn't be able to make outlandish claims about the defense in every game.

The defense played well enough to win at least 2 of the last 4 playoff games. The offense played well enough to win 0 of the last 4 playoff games. None of your constant spin and broad stats over 10 (some very irrelevant) years will change that.

No biggie.

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 04:45 PM)djs7685 Wrote: How many players are still here from the 2005 or hell, even the 2009 playoff game that you're throwing in here?

Again, you just want to look at the broad picture without going game by game because then you wouldn't be able to make outlandish claims about the defense in every game.

The defense played well enough to win at least 2 of the last 4 playoff games. The offense played well enough to win 0 of the last 4 playoff games. None of your constant spin and broad stats over 10 (some very irrelevant) years will change that.

No biggie.

5 sacks.  2 turnovers.  1 Constant.  

[WhoDeyWho]

(07-28-2015, 04:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: The problems are team wide:

Offense:

 - Bad ball security
 - Weird play selection
 - Failure to control line of scrimmage

Defense:

 - Can't stop the run
 - No pass rush

Note that the issues on both sides have a common thread - in all four games we got blown off the ball on both lines. Now the 2014 game was a mess from the start when we were running Burkhead out there as a WR and lost Hill by halftime to boot. But even there we saw the same problem of both lines getting owned by the opposition. 

On defense we need to step it up on the DL big time - if we can't get pressure then at least we have to stone the run. On offense (remember this is talking about the line) at least we need to give enough time for short throws and open holes for the RB. 

The weird play selection (like the deliberate non-use of Green for an entire half in 2012) is coaching. The turnover problems go to players needing to be sharp - QB needs to be careful for defenders trying to jump routes and not sail the ball and receivers have to run their routes properly and be in the correct position. Backs have to hang on to the ball no matter what and so on. 

Ultimately this goes back on the coaches a lot as many of these issues go back to proper game preparation. It also goes back on both lines as if the lines do their jobs the rest falls into place more. 

It is pretty evident we have gotten owned at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.  When you've been sacked 19 times in 6 playoff games that means you aren't winning the battle up front.  That's been typical of our team in big games.  

We go vanilla.  

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-28-2015, 12:01 PM)Benton Wrote: Turnover generating is great, but we can't rely on that. In the playoffs, some teams play a more conservative game than normal. Of course, some teams go all pass happy and just give the ball away... like us. Which, to me, has been the main issue. Everybody wants to point to Dalton in the playoffs, but the playcalling has been ridiculous. In a close game with a running game that's consistently moving you down the field, you don't suddenly switch to a passing game. I've never understood that decision making, but we've done it under two different OCs... so I'm hoping Marvin has a subscription to the Enquirer.

^This^

It's like the coaches totally lose their $^&%$%*@ minds come playoff time. We've been taking chunks a couple times in playoff games via the ground game and boom totally shelve it and not even down by much on the scoreboard. Marvin just totally craps his pants every time. This is very unlikely to change.

There's no doubt the offense has been more responsible for the losses than the defense. But having said that it's very much a team "fetal position" we assume.

[grampahol]

It's quite evident that the city of Cincinnati doesn't pray hard enough come playoff time. That's it. .Curry favor with the big invisible, silent thing in the sky and we win.
One of you virgins is just going to have to sacrifice yourself in the Ohio river.