I was wrong about...

[Socal Bengals fan]

Are we watching the same game. Even on quick hitch, or screen pass, Dalton is making his wrs make circus catches. Dalton is garbage.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-15-2017, 11:58 AM)ochocincos Wrote: That's fair, but when looking at top 15 QBs, there are definitely 10 better than Dalton, and there are about 4-5 others that are young and some people already consider them ahead of Dalton. My argument against the youngsters was I need to see more than 3 seasons to determine they are better, but it's hard to defend Dalton now as a top 15 QB when he's performed so poorly.

QBs definitely ahead of him:
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
Roethlisberger
Wilson
Luck
Ryan
Rivers
Newton
Stafford

At this point, Alex Smith and Sam Bradford are showing they can be as good or better than Dalton when they have OL and some weapons. Carr, Winston, Mariota, and even Prescott have been very good in their short NFL careers.

It's impossible to determine which QBs outside of Brady, Rodgers, and Brees that would perform as poorly or even worse than Dalton with the exact same offense. All I know is Dalton looks terrible without having a good line, and he's looked below average when not having at least three very good weapons available.

Lolololol...

Newton in 2016:
52.9% completion, 3,500 yards, 6.9 YPA, 19 TD/14 INT, 75.8 QB Rating

Wilson in 2017 Week 1:
51.9% completion, 158 yards, 5.9 YPA, 0 TD/0 INT, 69.7 QB Rating, 1 FL

Stafford had a ZERO WIN SEASON when he didn't have a good supporting staff.

Phillip Rivers had a HoF RB (LT), borderline-HoF FB (Neal),  HoF TE (Gates), and 4 different Pro Bowl OL in his career. Look at the guy carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders!

Luck's career is statistically worse than Dalton, and hasn't had to deal with Ken Zampese, while they surround him with a HoF WR (Reggie Wayne), HoF RB (Gore), and of their last 10 first round picks not named Luck they spent 4 on OL, 1 on RB, 2 on WR.

Roethlisberger won his first SB with the worst winning QB Rating in SB HISTORY. He has had 5 different Pro Bowl OL (4 of them All-Pros) in his career, plus a HoF RB (Bettis), the league's best WR (Brown), arguably the league's best RB (Bell), one of the league's best possession WRs (Ward), and the eternal sucking off of all the league's officials and refs.

Drew Brees wasn't Drew Brees for the Chargers. He became who he was under Sean Payton. The year Payton got suspended? His QB Rating dropped 14.4 points from the year before, with his completion % dropping to the lowest it's ever been with the Saints.

EDIT:
You also mentioned Alex Smith (surrounded by better talent), Sam Bradford (they focused heavily on a better OL), Carr (better talent AND OL), Winston (swamped by 1st round talent around him), Mariota (they focused heavily on getting him a good running game and OL), and Prescott has Elliott and like 4 All-Pro OL around him, and a HoF TE.

All you're listing is QBs whose teams successfully surrounded them with good talent, good OL, and good coaching. NONE of them are in a Ogbuehi/Bodine/Zampese situation.

- - - - - - - - - - --
I'm not saying some of these QBs aren't better than Dalton, but if you think Brady, Rodgers, and Brees, would be themselves behind Ogbuehi and Bodine, while running Ken Zampese's offense, you're kidding yourself.

Coaching makes a HUGE difference, and a great OL makes a huge difference. Romo's QB Rating jumped 16.5 when he got g good OL. Alex Smith and Colin Kapernick took the 49ers to the SB when Jim Harbaugh coached them. The 49ers won 7 games in the 2 years since he left.

Just remember this:
Tom Brady 2013 vs Bengals put up 47.4% completion, 197 yards, 5.2 YPA, 0 TD/1 INT, 52.2 QB Rating. His OL was awful that year and the Bengals DL was in his face all game. He finished with an 87.3 QB Rating that year. That was WITH good coaching. Imagine him that season with Marvin Lewis and Ken Zampese instead of Bill Belichick and Josh McDaniels.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-15-2017, 12:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Rep for that sig. 

I was also wrong about Dalton. He really had me fooled after 2015. I was ready to put him in that 2nd tier 6-10 type QBs. I know the oline and OC have been awful, but man has he regressed. I really, really miss Hue.

....but he's still just outside that tier, always has been.  Look at the numbers prior to 2015.  What happened after 2015?  We got amateur hour calling the plays, that's what.  Dalton had limited options in 2014, and we still went to the playoffs, and he still had a 12ish QB type of year.

Ken. Zampese. Is. Your. Problem.  He was bupkis as a QB coach, and he outright SUCKS as an OC.

[CageTheBengal]

(09-15-2017, 12:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: "Succeed" is a vague term, but I'd consider succeeding in this offense as 250 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 or less INT a game.
Dalton has amassed 394 yards, 0 TDs, 4 INTs, 54.5% completion percentage. Yes, two of those INTs were tipped, but I still somewhat blame him for the second because he's always getting tipped at the line. He's missed some pretty open receivers (sometimes in favor of very covered receivers). It's also his choice of whether to go with the play that's called or change the play at the line.

QBs I think that could "succeed" according to the above would be Brees, Roethlisberger, Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, Luck (if he weren't hurt), Wilson, Newton, Winston, Carr, maybe Mariota, maybe Prescott, maybe Alex Smith, maybe Sam Bradford.

If you disagree about these QBs being able to do so, that's your opinion but unless you can make a legitimate argument with proof that they couldn't, you won't change my mind.

Use whatever word you want I'm just figuring what you mean by a top 15 QB.

So more like top 10? Maybe's don't sound too confident.

We watched Wilson and Newton run for their lives all last year and it wasn't pretty both teams underachieved. Wilson has already been on the run this year.

Not trying to change your mind trying to figure out what you mean without splitting hairs or getting hung up on my word choices. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2017, 11:40 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Name me 15 QBs that could have a successful season behind the worst OL in the league, with no run game and the worst OC in the league.

I'll be wrong about you not being able to do so if you can.

The NFL isn't the NBA. You can't have LeBron and a bunch of turds and still win. Just look at the Seahawks. Russell Wilson with no OL and he played like crap Week 1. But at least he doesn't have to deal with Ken Zampese as his OC.

Exactly.

I'm not falling into the trap of using a top player or QB for a scapegoat again. F that. Dalton has been an exceptional QB for us for a long time. His resume is among the best in Bengals history, and he hasn't always had top shelf weapons like people claim. #2 WR has been a constant shuffle, with guys like Simpson, Binns, LaFell, Sanu, etc. Run game has been a steady stream of shit. Gresham was average as a receiver. Eifert is always hurt.

The weapons were solid considering we had AJ, but so was Dalton's performance. He's playing like shit right now, but when a good player falls off, I tend to wonder why, rather than just pretend that player has been a turd all along. People did this revisionist history BS with Chad, too. Suddenly he went from playful hero and universally loved, to a pure cancer that was always the reason the team underachieved. It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now. 

Aim your anger where it belongs, people. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-15-2017, 12:31 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Are we watching the same game. Even on quick hitch, or screen pass,  Dalton is making his wrs make circus catches. Dalton is garbage.

Thank you. Dalton's trouble are not solely on this OL or Zampese. He's missing some pretty open receivers or making them, as you say, make circus catches because they aren't where they should be.  I wouldn't go as far to say Dalton is garbage, but he's making it very hard to defend him.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-15-2017, 12:36 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Use whatever word you want I'm just figuring what you mean by a top 15 QB.

So more like top 10? Maybe's don't sound too confident.

We watched Wilson and Newton run for their lives all last year and it wasn't pretty both teams underachieved. Wilson has already been on the run this year.

Not trying to change your mind trying to figure out what you mean without splitting hairs or getting hung up on my word choices. 

I say "maybe" on a select few because they've been about as good or better than Dalton in their short time they've played, but I typically hold out a definitive yes or no until after Year 3.
Multiple rankings have come out putting those "maybes" ahead of Dalton.
I defended him this offseason, but there's way you can blame his (lack of) performance this year solely because of the OL or playcalling. He's making some pretty bad reads even when not pressured.

Joe Goodberry Wrote:So many of Dalton's worst plays are when there's no pressure at all.

https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/908694556144742401

How about you give proof that Dalton is performing like a Top 15 QB still? So far, I've been the only one defending my point but you haven't provided a lick of support for yours.
[url=https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/908694556144742401][/url]

[Socal Bengals fan]

That pass to Lafell? Who was that on Mike Brown?

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2017, 02:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I say "maybe" on a select few because they've been about as good or better than Dalton in their short time they've played, but I typically hold out a definitive yes or no until after Year 3.
Multiple rankings have come out putting those "maybes" ahead of Dalton.
I defended him this offseason, but there's way you can blame his (lack of) performance this year solely because of the OL or playcalling. He's making some pretty bad reads even when not pressured.
https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/908694556144742401

How about you give proof that Dalton is performing like a Top 15 QB still? So far, I've been the only one defending my point but you haven't provided a lick of support for yours.
[url=https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/908694556144742401][/url]

Still is the key word there. No, Dalton hasn't played like a top 15 QB "still" or this year. 

Top 15 is exactly how he's played in the past. His average ranking in passer rating for his career was exactly 15th (15.0) heading into this year. So what happened?

I'd say a combo of things. Bad o-line, starting off playing a pair of excellent defenses with good pass rush, a regression in mechanics, and a bland predictable offense are the key culprits.

[THE PISTONS]

The playcalling against the Texans was as vanilla as it gets. What 1 or 2 deep shots all game?

We have all these athletic playmakers.

Core didn't play either. Ross fumbled and was benched. Those are our big deep threats besides AJ Green.

[Fresno B]

(09-15-2017, 02:09 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: That pass to Lafell? Who was that on Mike Brown?

Come on man. You act like you don't want to participate in our daily mental gymnastics. The oline and Zampese of course. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-15-2017, 02:09 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: That pass to Lafell? Who was that on Mike Brown?

It. Was. One. Pass.

A successful offense wouldn't be broken by one bad pass. What about the abysmal run game? The sacks/pressures? The Eifert non-TD?

People put soooo much weight on the passing game (most of the credit/blame going to the QB, not scheme or anything else), but that's only half the offense. 

Where are all the pitchforks for the run game? 77 yards and 82 yards (15 on the Ross reverse) total. 3.5 YPC. Is this ok?

[WeezyBengal]

(09-15-2017, 11:29 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm creating this thread for everyone to admit that they were wrong about something pertaining to the Bengals.

I'll start:
I was wrong when I stated Andy Dalton was a top 15 QB. He has demonstrated that he's too dependent on too many other pieces to be a good QB. Top 15 QBs should not need a good OL and a ton of weapons just to have a good season.

I also was wrong about Dalton. I used to think he was OK and there were other issues with this team that lead to his failure, but man this guy needs to be held accountable. He has been bad this year. Im ready to give AJM a shot. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-15-2017, 12:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lolololol...


Stafford had a ZERO WIN SEASON when he didn't have a good supporting staff.

Hate to break it to you, but the Lions had a zero win season in 2008. Stafford was drafted the following year.

Also, you bring up a single season of stats where Newton and Wilson struggled. You're right that they struggled, but what's the justification that Dalton is better? You're not proving Dalton is better than them.

They've both played in Super Bowls, so they've proven they can perform in a playoff game.
The year the Panthers went, Newton only had Greg Olsen and Ted Ginn as true receiving threats. He didn't have a 1000 yard rusher either. He put that team on his back that year in an MVP season. Cam had a 35:10 TD-to-INT ratio.
The year the Seahawks won, they had Marshawn Lynch but no 1000 yard WR. Doug Baldwin in 2013 was not the WR he is today. Golden Tate was not a dominant WR either while with Seattle. Wilson had a 26:9 TD-to-INT ratio.

Cam Newton and Russell Wilson have done more with less in their careers.
I'm not saying Dalton has been bad, he hasn't. But to try and suggest he's better than Cam or Wilson is practically impossible.

Maybe you will be right on Wilson when it comes to the end of this year, as the Seahawks look to the be in near-identical situation. Now they have weapons (although not many as Cincy) but their OL is in shambles. The reason I have more confidence in Wilson over Dalton is Wilson is able to scramble better and doesn't seem to make as many mistakes with the football. With that said though, I don't watch every Seahawks game so maybe that's actually not true.

Anyway, enough of defending what I felt I was wrong about...the intent was for people to admit what they were wrong about.

[Fresno B]

(09-15-2017, 02:20 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I also was wrong about Dalton. I used to think he was OK and there were other issues with this team that lead to his failure, but man this guy needs to be held accountable. He has been bad this year. Im ready to give AJM a shot. 

When weezy is tired of Dalton then its obvious he's a problem. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-15-2017, 02:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The playcalling against the Texans was as vanilla as it gets. What 1 or 2 deep shots all game?

We have all these athletic playmakers.

Core didn't play either. Ross fumbled and was benched. Those are our big deep threats besides AJ Green.

Playcalling was bad. Obviously.

Dalton can't do anything about what other players are on the field when a play is called, but he can make a choice on changing up a play or which receiver he throws to. All the blame can't be on Zampese (although he's a big part of the failure).

[*bfine32*]

I was wrong in thinking that those that have historically backed Andy to the point of silliness would stop once his performance slipped drastically..............


OK, I wasn't wrong. I knew they'd continue. There is nothing the dude can do that will cause some to question his ability to lead this team.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

Again, if you KNOW your QB has problems with pressure (it was in his scouting report ffs), why didn't you address the oline that was the league's worst over the offseason?  It's the same thing they did to Palmer, knowing he couldn't move.

Twenty six years and counting........

[Benton]

If this is going to turn into another "Andy is bad" thread, it will get merged. For those discussions, there's plenty of other threads.

[*PhilHos*]

I was wrong about Bengals fans being intelligent. The level of stupidity and/or ignorance when it comes to Dalton is just astounding.

Yeah, the dude sucked in game 1 and was a bit below average last night, but my God, that does not undo the good things he's done in the regular season in previous years. Bottom line is the fault of our offense starts with the OC and coaches followed very closely by the OL.