Daltons Pocket Presence

[Socal Bengals fan]

i saw Rodgers getting pounded, Wilson n Alex Smith getting pounded. you might be on to something, i wish Dalton would hang on until the last second.

[fortyyearfan]

(09-27-2017, 10:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The Bengals are poor at play action because no one fears their rushing attack.  I hope Lazor stays dedicated to the run, and makes some changes on the offensive line to further develop it.   Bodine had a horrible game again, and is in his fourth year.  TJ Johnson has started, what, four games and is already better?  How about we go Johnson at Center and Westerman or Redmond at RG, and bench Ced for Andre...

Not sure if it would be wise to further stunt Fisher's development, but maybe he should be the LT and Andre at RT?  If Fisher could become the LT of the future, then getting a RT in the draft wouldn't necessitate a first round selection.

I am seriously hoping we go DT or CB in the first round instead of wasting another high pick on college offensive linemen that have no clue how to block in the NFL because they are all coming out of spread attacks.  

I would love love to see Westerman and Redmond in the lineup come sunday and sit bodine and number 70.I seriously believe marvin and company are started to see both are and have been a big mistake in drafting their asses.put their shit on the bench,all the way down on the bench,better yet make them sit on a cooler behind the bench.don't even allow them to dress for the game.lazy asses and poor excuses for a football player for their positon.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-27-2017, 10:04 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Then let's just keep rolling with what we have and wait for the regime to change I guess lol

Need an overhaul across the board.  That's why I said blow it all up.  These last two cores of good players has been wasted and Bungalized under Mediocre Marv and his Merry Band of Tenured Bums.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-27-2017, 03:27 PM)Wyche Wrote: Need an overhaul across the board.  That's why I said blow it all up.  These last two cores of good players has been wasted and Bungalized under Mediocre Marv and his Merry Band of Tenured Bums.

[muskiesfan]

(09-27-2017, 02:47 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: this is fake news.   we have a really good defense.  good running backs n wrs.  Dalton sucks n so does the oline.  We shouldnt need elite players all over the offense for our quarterback to be good...

How is it fake news? Was Dalton not accused of trying to force it, especially week 1? Then after the Packers game has Dalton not been attacked for not trying to force it and make plays?

Was it not said that Dalton needed to get the ball to his playmakers, especially AJ Green after the first 2 games? Week 3 he steadily feeds Green and was he not questioned for not getting the ball to his other receivers?

Everything I said in the post you responded to and this post are 100% accurate. Nothing made up, exaggerated, or untrue.

Outside of AJ Green, what "elite" weapon has Andy Dalton had since he entered the league? Can anyone really say Eifert is elite when he misses so much time? Which of these weapons is or was considered elite by anyone besides maybe some Bengals fans; Jerome Simpson, Jermaine Gresham, Andre Caldwell, BenJarvus Green-Ellis, Jeremy Hill, Giovani Bernard, Bernard Scott, Armon Binns, Brandon Tate, Brandon LaFell, Mohamed Sanu, Marvin Jones, Tyler Kroft, CJ Uzomah, Dane Sanzenbacher, Greg Little, Cobi Hamilton, Cody Core, Jake Kumerow, do I need to continue? Are those players really considered "surrounding Dalton with elite talent"?

Fans are already calling John Ross a bust and Joe Mixon is averaging 3.1 ypc. Are those elite weapons?

Like it or not, Dalton has helped to elevate the play of his offensive weapons. Unfortunately, he has the worst OLine of his career right now. Andy Dalton makes mistakes sometimes, but he is far from the problem.

[CanadianBengal]

(09-26-2017, 01:46 AM)Gohards Wrote: BIts called seeing ghosts.

If you have a terrible line this is going to happen. To 80% of QBs. Not everyone can have an Aaron Rodgers.

Dalton has never had poise in the pocket. Which is why if your committed to him as your QB you need a great o-line. Bengals thought they had this when they doubled up on OTs unfortunately they missed on both. 

[Housh]

(09-27-2017, 03:07 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: i saw Rodgers getting pounded, Wilson n Alex Smith getting pounded. you might be on to something, i wish Dalton would hang on until the last second.

Watching Aaron Rodgers play was amazing even in the loss. He’s the best QB Iv ever seen. The throws he was making were caY

[Shake n Blake]

(09-26-2017, 01:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What's to stop them?
Being willing to finally bring in a premier outside FA or two for the OL.

By letting Dalton go (or even better trade), they immediately get the money to pay for Nate Solder for three years. If they can't get Solder, they'll need to draft a new LT because the rest of the FA market besides Solder is bad.
By letting a couple other veterans go (LaFell, MJ, Adam Jones), they would also have the money to cover a nice contract for a good center like Richburg.
Draft another OT as well.
Try Fisher or Ogbuehi at RG to see if they can become a good player at that position since they have yet to prove they can do so at OT.

A line of Solder, Boling, Richburg, Ogbuehi/Fisher, 1st/2nd round OT plus the weapons the Bengals have should (in theory) make for a solid team even with a rookie QB.

This is a pipe dream. They had the money to bring in a premier tackle this offseason and didn't do it. The Bengals are never players in free agency, no matter how much money they have to throw around. Hobspin will just print his yearly BS article to magically explain away the money. We know the drill by now, don't we?

(09-26-2017, 01:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Just because they haven't traditionally done it doesn't mean they won't ever.
Ken Zampese is a great example.
Many of us thought he would stick through the rest of the season at least.
Yet he was fired after the Houston game.
I sure didn't think that would have happened knowing the traditional behavior of this organization.

It took a full blown mutiny to make that happen. Lets not pretend it's a sign of changes to come.

(09-26-2017, 02:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Is Flacco worse than Dalton right now? Dalton has the league's worst total QBR at 16.6 and Flacco's total QBR is 24.1. I think anyone saying Dalton is better than Flacco right now is being subjective.

QBR is a garbage stat, Dalton has been better this year and better over the course of their careers. Statistically, the gap is pretty big.

Btw, Dalton is coming off a 124 passer rating, while Flacco just dropped a 12.0 which looked worse than that. If we're talking right now, it's clear who is better. If we're talking about the past too, for that matter.

(09-26-2017, 03:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair enough. I should rephrase...unless Dalton turns it around by season's end, I think it's time to cut bait.

I'd have no problem with that at all. I wouldn't be hopeful for the future though, barring major coaching and organizational changes.

Plus, I'd still always wonder how Dalton would've fared with a better coach, but I may be able to see that if he goes elsewhere.

(09-26-2017, 03:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He's NEVER been a franchise QB.

He's been an above average QB. He's been maybe a good to really good QB for half a season before.

He's not the guy to transcend this organization. With that said, I don't know if any QB is. If Tom Brady was here, he might have ended up like Jeff Rowe.

I wouldn't say he's never been a franchise guy, but I think some people view "franchise" and "elite" as almost interchangeable terms. I see Stafford, Flacco and Tannehill as franchise guys, but not elite. Similar to Dalton.

You are spot on with that last line. I've always thought that if this team drafted Brady or Rodgers, they'd wind up looking more like Palmer or Dalton than an elite, 40 TD kind of QB.

(09-26-2017, 10:50 PM)Housh Wrote: We’ve had a great o line for a couple seasons and Andy still choked

Everyone has choked, Housh. Everyone. Marvin Lewis had that reputation before Dalton was even drafted. Why do people blame Dalton for choking but not any other players? Is Dalton supposed to rise above the choking culture?

(09-26-2017, 11:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I'm pretty tired of hearing about 2015 tbh. This is a what have you done for me lately kind of league and Dalton has won a total of 6 games going all the way back to the start of last season.

What has happened since the start of 2016? We've had a crap line (52 sacks in that span - most in the NFL). We had a coordinator that was so bad that the players had a mutiny to get him fired. Notice that the players didn't have a mutiny to get Dalton benched. A bad line and bad OC could have a negative affect on QB play I would think. 

(09-27-2017, 03:07 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: i saw Rodgers getting pounded, Wilson n Alex Smith getting pounded. you might be on to something,  i wish Dalton would hang on until the last second.

Wilson was sacked the same amount of times as Dalton last year and posted nearly identical stats. Both saw their play take a dip. Wilson was bad the first 2 weeks this year, when he was sacked 6 times. He just had his first good game and it just so happened his line played well (1 sack). Smith hasn't taken the consistent beating that Dalton has. Rodgers is a HOF talent.

To sum it up, I don't know where people get this idea that QB's shouldn't be negatively affected by sacks. I've been following football for 30 years and as long as I've been watching, it's been football 101 that you need to protect your QB. Why do people think that is? Aaron Rodgers is the extreme exception. Even Tom Brady gets rattled when he gets hit. 

Don't believe me? Ask James Harrison:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/0ap3000000777075/Harrison-on-Brady-Anybody-can-be-rattled-if-you-get-hit-enough

"Any QB can be rattled if you hit him enough"

So why are we slamming Dalton for being rattled? Why aren't we slamming the idiotic FO for letting the line go to shit? Or Paul Alexander?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-28-2017, 12:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So why are we slamming Dalton for being rattled? Why aren't we slamming the idiotic FO for letting the line go to shit? Or Paul Alexander?

The FO and PA are slammed here all day every day. But Dalton should get his fair share of the blame for losing just like he would get a lot of the credit if we were winning. Some of us are just ready to start thinking about the future at QB after 7 years. It's not like Dalton hasn't been given ample time to prove he's the guy that can take us to the next level. To be clear though I'm only interested in drafting another QB and starting over if Marvin is gone. Otherwise I couldn't care less. Keep trotting Andy out there it won't matter anyway. 

[CornerBlitz]

Great article.

https://www.lockedonbengals.com/the-early-season-dalton-narrative/

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-28-2017, 04:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Great article.

https://www.lockedonbengals.com/the-early-season-dalton-narrative/

I'm not sure I agree that "AJ McCarron would be much worse" but other than that everything was spot on. Good article, indeed. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-28-2017, 04:04 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Great article.

https://www.lockedonbengals.com/the-early-season-dalton-narrative/

"Yips"....sums it up perfectly.  Good find Corner.

[Shake n Blake]

According to PFF, we've allowed a whopping 39 pressures through 3 games. Dalton is the most sacked QB in the league since 2016.

Only Bengals fans would blame the QB for faltering while taking a beating. As James Harrison once said, "Any QB can be rattled if you hit him".

My goodness. We're on pace to give up 208 pressures and 59 sacks FFS...and people are mad at the QB. Wouldn't 208 pressures be some kind of record?

To add to the pain, Whit has only given up 1 pressure.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-28-2017, 11:14 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: According to PFF, we've allowed a whopping 39 pressures through 3 games. Dalton is the most sacked QB in the league since 2016.

Only Bengals fans would blame the QB for faltering while taking a beating. As James Harrison once said, "Any QB can be rattled if you hit him".

My goodness. We're on pace to give up 208 pressures and 59 sacks FFS...and people are mad at the QB. Wouldn't 208 pressures be some kind of record?

To add to the pain, Whit has only given up 1 pressure.

.......which is why he has the "yips". It's Cincy sports baby, you blame the QB (or Joey Votto) if you're losing.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Marvin Jones is a borderline number 1 for the Lions . Sanu is pretty much the number 2 with the Falcons

[*PhilHos*]

(09-28-2017, 12:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is a pipe dream. They had the money to bring in a premier tackle this offseason and didn't do it. The Bengals are never players in free agency, no matter how much money they have to throw around. Hobspin will just print his yearly BS article to magically explain away the money. We know the drill by now, don't we?


It took a full blown mutiny to make that happen. Lets not pretend it's a sign of changes to come.


QBR is a garbage stat, Dalton has been better this year and better over the course of their careers. Statistically, the gap is pretty big.

Btw, Dalton is coming off a 124 passer rating, while Flacco just dropped a 12.0 which looked worse than that. If we're talking right now, it's clear who is better. If we're talking about the past too, for that matter.


I'd have no problem with that at all. I wouldn't be hopeful for the future though, barring major coaching and organizational changes.

Plus, I'd still always wonder how Dalton would've fared with a better coach, but I may be able to see that if he goes elsewhere.


I wouldn't say he's never been a franchise guy, but I think some people view "franchise" and "elite" as almost interchangeable terms. I see Stafford, Flacco and Tannehill as franchise guys, but not elite. Similar to Dalton.

You are spot on with that last line. I've always thought that if this team drafted Brady or Rodgers, they'd wind up looking more like Palmer or Dalton than an elite, 40 TD kind of QB.


Everyone has choked, Housh. Everyone. Marvin Lewis had that reputation before Dalton was even drafted. Why do people blame Dalton for choking but not any other players? Is Dalton supposed to rise above the choking culture?


What has happened since the start of 2016? We've had a crap line (52 sacks in that span - most in the NFL). We had a coordinator that was so bad that the players had a mutiny to get him fired. Notice that the players didn't have a mutiny to get Dalton benched. A bad line and bad OC could have a negative affect on QB play I would think. 


Wilson was sacked the same amount of times as Dalton last year and posted nearly identical stats. Both saw their play take a dip. Wilson was bad the first 2 weeks this year, when he was sacked 6 times. He just had his first good game and it just so happened his line played well (1 sack). Smith hasn't taken the consistent beating that Dalton has. Rodgers is a HOF talent.

To sum it up, I don't know where people get this idea that QB's shouldn't be negatively affected by sacks. I've been following football for 30 years and as long as I've been watching, it's been football 101 that you need to protect your QB. Why do people think that is? Aaron Rodgers is the extreme exception. Even Tom Brady gets rattled when he gets hit. 

Don't believe me? Ask James Harrison:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/pittsburgh-steelers/0ap3000000777075/Harrison-on-Brady-Anybody-can-be-rattled-if-you-get-hit-enough

"Any QB can be rattled if you hit him enough"

So why are we slamming Dalton for being rattled? Why aren't we slamming the idiotic FO for letting the line go to shit? Or Paul Alexander?

Post of the year, right here. In the Andy Dalton Category, anyways.

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Marvin Jones is a borderline number 1 for the Lions . Sanu is pretty much the number 2 with the Falcons

And Non Sequitur of the year award goes to ...

[Shake n Blake]

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Marvin Jones is a borderline number 1 for the Lions . Sanu is pretty much the number 2 with the Falcons

Marvin Jones has been awful for the Lions. Over the last 15 games, he's posted only 43 catches for 610 yards and 4 TDs.

Those are weak #2 numbers. Plus Stafford has struggled getting him the ball (49.4% completion rate on passes targeting Marvin over that span). 

I would speculate that this could be because Marvin isn't the deep/intermediate threat that people assumed he was. A low completion rate isn't a sign of dropped passes, it's a sign that either (a) your QB isn't accurate or (b) the receiver is well covered. Stafford is a pretty good QB, which leads me to believe Marvin isn't getting open enough. Dalton had a 62.3% completion rate when targeting Marvin Jones, but this is probably due to the fact that we get receivers involved on short throws.

Basically, Marvin Jones was fools gold and probably isn't getting enough separation to justify his usage as a starting WR. The Lions massively overpaid and will probably be dumping him when they can get an easy out with little dead money. I honestly expect Jones to be cut next March if he doesn't turn things around ASAP.
_______________________

As for Mo Sanu, he's limited in what he can do (lacks speed), but the Falcons have at least gotten better value. That said, he's been a pretty weak #2 (653 yards + 4 TDs last year). The Falcons spread the ball around a ton (9 receivers with at least 19 catches in 2016) and certainly don't focus on Sanu much.
_______________________

I'd say they've both been a disappointment for their new teams, and they certainly didn't explode like some on here thought they would. Marvin has easily been the greater disappointment of the 2, but it's not like Sanu is setting Atlanta ablaze. He's been replacement level. At least they didn't MASSIVELY overpay like Detroit did when they were panicking to replace Calvin.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-28-2017, 03:23 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marvin Jones has been awful for the Lions. Over the last 15 games, he's posted only 43 catches for 610 yards and 4 TDs.

Those are weak #2 numbers. Plus Stafford has struggled getting him the ball (49.4% completion rate on passes targeting Marvin over that span). 

I would speculate that this could be because Marvin isn't the deep/intermediate threat that people assumed he was. A low completion rate isn't a sign of dropped passes, it's a sign that either (a) your QB isn't accurate or (b) your receiver is well covered. Stafford is a pretty good QB, which leads me to believe Marvin isn't getting open enough. Dalton had a 62.3% completion rate when targeting Marvin Jones, but this is probably due to the fact that we get receivers involved on short throws.

Basically, Marvin Jones was fools gold and probably isn't getting enough separation to justify his usage as a starting WR. The Lions massively overpaid and will probably be dumping him when they can get an easy out with little dead money. I honestly expect Jones to be cut next March if he doesn't turn things around ASAP.
_______________________

As for Mo Sanu, he's limited in what he can do (lacks speed), but the Falcons have at least gotten better value. That said, he's been a pretty weak #2 (653 yards + 4 TDs last year). The Falcons spread the ball around a ton (9 receivers with at least 19 catches in 2016) and certainly don't focus on Sanu much.
_______________________

I'd say they've both been a disappointment for their new teams, and they certainly didn't explode like some on here thought they would. Marvin has easily been the greater disappointment of the 2, but it's not like Sanu is setting Atlanta ablaze. He's been replacement level.

It's almost as if ... Dalton elevated their play while in Cincy.

[Brownshoe]

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Marvin Jones is a borderline number 1 for the Lions . Sanu is pretty much the number 2 with the Falcons

How is Jones a borderline #1 for the Lions? He had a great start at the beginning of last season, but hasn't done much since then. I mean he doesn't even have 100 yards yet this season. Sanu is the #2 for the Falcons, because they have no one else. He had 653 yards and 4 TDs last year.

I wish we had both of them as receivers, but I don't think that the ones we have now are that much if any of a downgrade.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-28-2017, 12:53 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Marvin Jones is a borderline number 1 for the Lions . Sanu is pretty much the number 2 with the Falcons

Who or what post are you replying to?