McAlister: 'And people think Andy is the problem? '

[sandwedge]

(11-01-2017, 06:01 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: I encourage everybody to watch the all 22 that Joe goodberry and that other guy do every week. They put it on YouTube for a short time too until it's removed. This Indy game was really the worst I've seen out of the o line , and Andy actually stood in there when he knew he was going yo get hit and gave his receiver a chance, this isn't common from Andy.  He usually runs or ducks. But I am not a Dalton believer or lover really . The tape even shows ,it's both Andy and the o line. Even in the Indy game he's just inaccurate on a few easy type throws. But overall he did a good job I thought. Now I do think Marvin and Mike Brown are idiots to not try to fix the o line any way possible. Can they tinker with the o line at all besides the stupid rotation. Can you try tj Johnson at center ? Which I'm pretty sure would be a upgrade over the worst center in the league Bodine. Nope we are too complacent.  Our only hope is if a sucky player got hurt.

So this is your eyeball test, some schmuck on youtube??

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-01-2017, 06:38 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So this is your eyeball test, some schmuck on youtube??

Lol you Dalton die hard lovers are comical. Some schmuck on YouTube. Then what the heck is your opinion on football? Why is anybody on here because nobody knows football except people who are employed by the NFL so sit down shut up and be happy cause you don't know nothing about football. Everyone is dumb about football because it's about hard as rocket science.

[BURROWorBUST]

(10-31-2017, 02:19 PM)McC Wrote: It was probably more a matter of hoping against hope, because really, what other choice was there?

Right, that's why so many of us sort of hedged our bets on what this season would bring. I know I did. The Online has not exceeded anyone's expectations, but that's nothing new.

[muskiesfan]

As long as Dalton is here, it'll all be his fault. Yes he makes mistakes, yes he has issues, yes he has weaknesses. You'd think he's the worst QB in the league by listening to Bengals fans. They can't wait to boo him and talk about how the next Tom Brady is being wasted on our bench. When McCarron bails and Driskel is the backup, I can guarantee fans will be talking about how they want Driskel to start. Dalton is a damn good NFL QB who deserves much better fans than the Bengals fans he's got. No, he's not elite, but he's better than what at least half the league trots out. Plus, he does an awful lot for a city that constantly shits on him.

I also guarantee that when McCarron is starting somewhere, Bengals fans will say he is better than Dalton no matter what. Dalton has better stats, they'll continue with stats don't matter. Bengals win more games, it'll be in spite of Dalton and poor McCarron not getting the weapons he deserves. Trust me, people want to ***** about Dalton apologists, the Andy Army, or whatever other juvenile name calling ignorant shit. That won't compare to every excuse that will be used as to why McCarron is better than Dalton and how the Bengals would've been better off with McCarron. Book it. It's fact.

[sandwedge]

(11-01-2017, 06:44 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol you Dalton die hard lovers are comical. Some schmuck on YouTube. Then what the heck is your opinion on football? Why is anybody on here because nobody knows football except people who are employed by the NFL so sit down shut up and be happy cause you don't know nothing about football. Everyone is dumb about football because it's about hard as rocket science.

Seriously dude? If you put your opinion on here, expect some kind of response. If you can't see from the twitter video that Dalton can't drop back for more than .5, he's toast. Then you have other issues... Is Andy perfect, no, everybody agrees on that, but you are putting the blame on someone that isn't 10% of the problem.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-01-2017, 07:33 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Seriously dude? If you put your opinion on here, expect some kind of response. If you can't see from the twitter video that Dalton can't drop back for more than .5, he's toast. Then you have other issues... Is Andy perfect, no, everybody agrees on that, but you are putting the blame on someone that isn't 10% of the problem.

Wow .5 seconds lol you got the issues ,you guys are so easily offended over Dalton your favorite player with other fans that want to win. It's a weird obsession with you guys. You won't even check the videos out and if you did you'd be blind to it. Yupp it's all o line, replace that Andy would take us to a Superbowl. If only he had a good team the last 7 years we'd have 7 rings.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-01-2017, 04:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the fact you have to go back almost 30 years to call horseshit speaks for itself. Palmer was always well protected. He did get his nose busted in a preseason game once and folks lost their minds, but his protection was always well above average.

Andy has had a very good oline his whole career up to this point. like I said each year a handful of QBs have to deal with an atrocious Oline. This year is Andy's and it is all folks can talk about.  

Expect for...

2006 - when Palmer was sacked 36 times (9th most in the league)
2008 - when Palmer/Fitz were sacked 51 times (3rd most in the league) - so people losing their minds over Palmer's broken nose was justified...it was a sign of things to come
2012 - when Dalton was sacked 46 times (3rd most in the league)
2016 - when Dalton was sacked 41 times (2nd most in the league)
2017 - Dalton on pace for 50 sacks (9th most in the league, 3rd most per attempt)

and go ahead throw in 2009, when Palmer was sacked 26 times (15th in the league) but was 19th in attempts and we had to hide the poor blocking with an extra tackle and unbalanced lines, which greatly limited our options throwing the ball. So 6 of the last 12 seasons have featured poor pass blocking. 

That's not even getting into the run blocking, where we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC since 2006 in every season sans 2014.

(11-01-2017, 05:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, but I personally feel it is overkill in this forum and the reason is what I have stated. We haven't had to go through it especially at the blindside.

Any subject that is brought up in this forum eventually goes back to the oline; it's like Kevin bacon.

I can see why it'd be annoying to talk about the same thing over and over, but everything on offense depends on blocking and we have a historically bad line, so...

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 08:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Expect for...

2006 - when Palmer was sacked 36 times (9th most in the league)
2008 - when Palmer/Fitz were sacked 51 times (3rd most in the league) - so people losing their minds over Palmer's broken nose was justified...it was a sign of things to come
2012 - when Dalton was sacked 46 times (3rd most in the league)
2016 - when Dalton was sacked 41 times (2nd most in the league)
2017 - Dalton on pace for 50 sacks (9th most in the league, 3rd most per attempt)

and go ahead throw in 2009, when Palmer was sacked 26 times (15th in the league) but was 19th in attempts and we had to hide the poor blocking with an extra tackle and unbalanced lines, which greatly limited our options throwing the ball. So 6 of the last 12 seasons have featured poor pass blocking. 

That's not even getting into the run blocking, where we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC since 2006 in every season sans 2014.


I can see why it'd be annoying to talk about the same thing over and over, but everything on offense depends on blocking and we have a historically bad line, so...

If you want to go by sacks we are currently tied for 10th only 1 more than the 14th place team, so are you sure you want to go by sacks or do you want to say ours QBs have had good protection or do you want to say our QBs haven't had good protection. Given you came up with 4 years that we were bottom 10 in sacks since CP9 jogged onto the field in 2004

You only get to pick one. I pick our QBs have had good protection. 

Run blocking is not considered in the OP

[muskiesfan]

(11-01-2017, 08:39 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Wow .5 seconds lol you got the issues ,you guys are so easily offended over Dalton your favorite player with other fans that want to win. It's a weird obsession with you guys. You won't even check the videos out and if you did you'd be blind to it. Yupp it's all o line, replace that Andy would take us to a Superbowl. If only he had a good team the last 7 years we'd have 7 rings.

You're certainly taking things to extreme here. The issues go well beyond Andy. Dalton has had a bad OLine almost half the time he's been here. Couple that with a lack of running game and it's obvious to see that there are plenty of issues to spread around the offense and not just Dalton.

Since Dalton came into the league in 2011, the Bengals have ranked 19, 18, 18, 6, 13, 13, and 30 in rushing yards. They have ranked 27, 19, 27, 10, 21, 21, and 30 in yards per carry. With the exception of 1 season, we haven't been a good rushing team. Some of that definitely falls on the OLine.

As for passing, many want to straight up ignore it, but Dalton's quick release and a lot of quick passing routes helped mask some of the OLine issues. When there were only a couple of poor blockers, they could do some scheming to help. When 4 out of 5 starters and the 1 rotating tackle are all playing poorly, what is Dalton supposed to do?

Joe Goodberry does a good job breaking things down, but he's been anti-Dalton for awhile. He's not at all objective in his analysis of Dalton. Using him as an example of Dalton's play is far from fair or impartial.

At the end of the day, coaching, management, and ownership are the biggest problems holding this franchise down. Swapping Dalton out doesn't fix any of those problems.

[BenZoo2]

(11-01-2017, 08:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Expect for...

2006 - when Palmer was sacked 36 times (9th most in the league)
2008 - when Palmer/Fitz were sacked 51 times (3rd most in the league) - so people losing their minds over Palmer's broken nose was justified...it was a sign of things to come
2012 - when Dalton was sacked 46 times (3rd most in the league)
2016 - when Dalton was sacked 41 times (2nd most in the league)
2017 - Dalton on pace for 50 sacks (9th most in the league, 3rd most per attempt)

and go ahead throw in 2009, when Palmer was sacked 26 times (15th in the league) but was 19th in attempts and we had to hide the poor blocking with an extra tackle and unbalanced lines, which greatly limited our options throwing the ball. So 6 of the last 12 seasons have featured poor pass blocking. 

That's not even getting into the run blocking, where we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC since 2006 in every season sans 2014.


I can see why it'd be annoying to talk about the same thing over and over, but everything on offense depends on blocking and we have a historically bad line, so...

There are a few constants here.  Head coach.  O line coach.  And owner who doesn't value interior line play.  Listed in ascending order of where I lay the blame.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-01-2017, 09:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you want to go by sacks we are currently tied for 10th only 1 more than the 14th place team, so are you sure you want to go by sacks or do you want to say ours QBs have had good protection or do you want to say our QBs haven't had good protection. Given you came up with 4 years that we were bottom 10 in sacks since CP9 jogged onto the field in 2004

You only get to pick one. I pick our QBs have had good protection. 

Run blocking is not considered in the OP

Dalton is currently the 5th most sacked QB in the league:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks

And here's how they stack up in pass attempts per sack:

1. Colts- 7.8
2. Texans- 8.3
3. Bengals- 9.91 
4. Broncos- 10.04 
5. Jets- 10.20
6. Bills- 10.32
7. Packers- 10.50
8. Lions- 10.80 
9. 49ers- 11.67 
10. Bears- 11.68 
11. Cardinals- 11.71 
12. Chiefs- 11.82 
13. Eagles- 12.00
14. Panthers- 12.27
15. Browns- 13.35 
16. Patriots- 14.71
17. Redskins- 14.81
18. Ravens- 15.00 
19. Giants- 15.29 
20. Dolphins- 15.50
21. Seahawks- 16.19
22. Titans- 16.77
23. Jags- 18.09
24. Falcons- 19.33
25. Buccaneers- 21.46 
26. Raiders- 21.77 
27. Rams- 22.40 
28. Cowboys- 25.33
29. Chargers- 26.00
30. Steelers- 27.60
31. Vikings- 27.70
32. Saints- 35.43 

In other words, our eyes aren't lying to us. Bfine might be, though. I mean you're not trying to argue that this year isn't so bad, right?

Also, I listed 5 years (not 4) from 2006-present (12 seasons) and anyone who remembers 2009 will tell you that our pass blocking sucked...that's why we ran an extra tackle and unbalanced lines.

So again...6 years out of the last 12, our pass blocking has sucked. 

And I don't care what you think the OP was referring to, run blocking is relevant when discussing o-line play. We've had spotty pass blocking and terrible run blocking for 12 years now.

[Deanlj69]

So we can all agree that the problem is the Piano Man. Seems like he has no clue on how to build or evaluate players where you have multi faceted lineman that can actually run block and pass block.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 09:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Dalton is currently the 5th most sacked QB in the league:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/sacks

And here's how they stack up in pass attempts per sack:

1. Colts- 7.8
2. Texans- 8.3
3. Bengals- 9.91 
4. Broncos- 10.04 
5. Jets- 10.20
6. Bills- 10.32
7. Packers- 10.50
8. Lions- 10.80 
9. 49ers- 11.67 
10. Bears- 11.68 
11. Cardinals- 11.71 
12. Chiefs- 11.82 
13. Eagles- 12.00
14. Panthers- 12.27
15. Browns- 13.35 
16. Patriots- 14.71
17. Redskins- 14.81
18. Ravens- 15.00 
19. Giants- 15.29 
20. Dolphins- 15.50
21. Seahawks- 16.19
22. Titans- 16.77
23. Jags- 18.09
24. Falcons- 19.33
25. Buccaneers- 21.46 
26. Raiders- 21.77 
27. Rams- 22.40 
28. Cowboys- 25.33
29. Chargers- 26.00
30. Steelers- 27.60
31. Vikings- 27.70
32. Saints- 35.43 

In other words, our eyes aren't lying to us. Bfine might be, though. I mean you're not trying to argue that this year isn't so bad, right?

Also, I listed 5 years (not 4) from 2006-present (12 seasons) and anyone who remembers 2009 will tell you that our pass blocking sucked...that's why we ran an extra tackle and unbalanced lines.

So again...6 years out of the last 12, our pass blocking has sucked. 

And I don't care what you think the OP was referring to, run blocking is relevant when discussing o-line play. We've had spotty pass blocking and terrible run blocking for 12 years now.

I have no idea where you get that I have said the oline is not bad; yet. it doesn't seem to stop you from asserting what I am saying. Point to Dalton being the 5th most sack QB, but that dismisses teams that have had multiple QBs this year.

It's also telling how you jump around from total sacks to sacks per attempt to make a point. For instance in 2006 you mention CP9 was sacked the 9th most in the league yet didn't point to sacks per attempt. I wonder why. Similarly done in 2016 when you wanted to stress 2nd most sacks. Perhaps you're just looking to make it appear as bad as possible, Nah, that cannot be it. 

And you really should care about what the OP is referring to; as we already have too much of folks wanting to post their own agenda and disregard the intent of the OP

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2017, 09:24 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: So we can all agree that the problem is the Piano Man. Seems like he has no clue on how to build or evaluate players where you have multi faceted lineman that can actually run block and pass block.

I have often pointed to the fact that many of our olinemen remain unengaged. IDK if it is scheme or failure to understand assignments. PA's time passed a long time ago. I think Fred was the only one left that really defended him and his time passed long ago as well. 

[bengalsfansince93]

(11-01-2017, 04:35 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, lets's take a look at the 4 playoff games that Andy played in.

In 2011 against the Texans, the leading rusher and receiver was Brian Leonard. The offensive performance was putrid overall. The defense was gashed for 188 yards rushing. The entire team stunk up the joint.

In 2012 against the Texans, they Bengals ran the ball a grand total of 16 times and the O was held under 200 yards. Again, an abysmal performance. The D allowed Schaub to complete 29/38 and gave up over 400 yards.

In 2013 against the Chargers, the entire team forgot they had to play the 2nd half in one of the most embarrassing halves of football I'v ever seen in a playoff game. The coaching staff had absolutely no answers.

In 2014 against the Colts, they were riddled with injuries but were only down 3 at the half. Then, once again, the entire team did absolutely nothing in the 2nd half. On top of that, the D gave up almost 500 yards.

Yes, Andy certainly played his part in these losses, but so did basically the entire team and coaching staff. They were top-to-bottom failures. 

While I don't think Andy is an 'elite' QB and still has faults that can be frustrating at times, I do think he's a very good NFL QB and takes far more blame than he deserves. I don't have an issue with people criticizing him after a bad performance, as long as you also acknowledge when he plays well. What I don't like is people who simply bash everything he does without providing valid reasons for it. 

You know what I see here?   A bunch of excuses for a mediocre QB. 

[bengalsfansince93]

(11-01-2017, 04:45 PM)WhoDeyandtheBlowFish Wrote: You can't help anyone because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Funny that's how I feel about Dalton apologists.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-01-2017, 09:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. I have no idea where you get that I have said the oline is not bad; yet. it doesn't seem to stop you from asserting what I am saying. 2. Point to Dalton being the 5th most sack QB, but that dismisses teams that have had multiple QBs this year.

3. It's also telling how you jump around from total sacks to sacks per attempt to make a point. For instance in 2006 you mention CP9 was sacked the 9th most in the league yet didn't point to sacks per attempt. I wonder why. Similarly done in 2016 when you wanted to stress 2nd most sacks. Perhaps you're just looking to make it appear as bad as possible, Nah, that cannot be it. 

1. Because you're intentionally cryptic with your points? Kinda leads to people assuming what you're driving at, because people don't have the patience to deal with that crap.

2. That's why I followed with team attempts per sack. Kinda takes the whole "but multiple QB's" out of the equation. 

3. Only if you're dense or being intentionally obtuse. See #2...I just didn't feel like doing that math for 32 teams over a 12 year span. That would've required crunching the numbers of 384 teams, essentially. If you think I'm wrong about the 5 years I listed, go ahead and crunch the numbers yourself. Here, I'll even help you out by providing a good link:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing

[Shake n Blake]

(11-01-2017, 05:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Any subject that is brought up in this forum eventually goes back to the oline; it's like Kevin bacon.

(11-01-2017, 09:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I have often pointed to the fact that many of our olinemen remain unengaged. IDK if it is scheme or failure to understand assignments. PA's time passed a long time ago. I think Fred was the only one left that really defended him and his time passed long ago as well. 

So now you're ready to talk about how bad the line is? Ah, nevermind.

[McC]

(11-01-2017, 05:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, but I personally feel it is overkill in this forum and the reason is what I have stated. We haven't had to go through it especially at the blindside.

Any subject that is brought up in this forum eventually goes back to the oline; it's like Kevin bacon.

Well, if you were swimming and you had an anchor chained to your back, how much would you have to say about the temperature of the water? 

The OLine is THE issue with this team.  This ONE area of the team is drowning everyone.  EVERYTHING else on this team is good enough to make a run. Can't imagine why anyone is consumed by it.

[Bengalholic]

(11-01-2017, 09:57 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: You know what I see here?   A bunch of excuses for a mediocre QB. 

Except that all those 'excuses' are also an unfortunate reality. As I said, Andy certainly has his share of blame in those games, but the fact is that the entire team and coaching staff shit their collective pants as well. 

You're certainly entitled to whatever opinion you want to have of Andy brother, but you can't just ignore facts like they didn't happen, as far as the playoff games go.