The big 3 is the problem

[bengalsturntup5532]

Ownership , Coaching , and yeah QB also . Im especially frustrated with Coaching and Qb i want them both to just go away. I know Dalton has a army of die hard supporters who will fight to the death for him. But i cant stand his inaccuracy any longer. That one throw he missed up the sidelines to Aj is not a hard throw for a NFL qb to make. If you launch that out of bounds ,I have no hope for you. Every week it's a hand full of throws you can just check mark down that will be overthrown . These are the same throws he came in with in preseason his rookie year,his accuracy is just that inconsistent and bad for your starter ,I don't care what stats people bring up. I see it with my own eyes each game. Also watch the all 22 with goodberry and not only accuracy but he never climbs the pocket when it's available.

With this said , Marvin has been married to Dalton since he drafted him. He's going to go down with Dalton. The coach is in control of who plays on the roster,and I think Marvin has more control then people think. Everything he does is with familiararity . He won't even make a trade unless it's with one of his buddies like Hue Jackson. I do not trust ANYTHING Marvin Lewis says either. He's lied and been wrong so much in his tenure it's like he's a compulsive liar. I don't trust any talent judgement the man does,on Ross , O line, or even kicker. He puts Dre Kirkpatrick on a speed guy when we have a faster cornerback on the bench. He doesn't use Evans at all , he trots MJ back out on defensive end and he didn't get any pressure,I think Lawson got 16 snaps.

Judging the o line talent , he's the coach he could replace Bodine with someone but he won't, he could switch things up some how some way. He's too stubborn and complacent. The best team we ever had,we had a elite qb and a great o line with a elite offense. And Marvin isn't a offense mind or coach so I'm thinking that was the coaching around him and talent on the team. Similar where he had all the defensive talent in Baltimore where he ran into success.

It's going to have to start with Marvin leaving for us to really have a chance at winning,I know that's depressing because we are at like midseason . There's still 8 more games ,two months to go to watch the bafoonery. And just like the Marvins way he will change some things up at the last minute to give fans false hope at the end of the season kind of like 2010 and last year. Then look to the draft where people actually get excited about the first round pick that won't play. No free agents worth a damn either.

Furthermore like Dave Lapham said, the jags had 3/5 o lineman that were undrafted free agents,and same goes for Pitt. And if I'm not mistaken the Pats have done that too. I always hear "we got to draft o lineman 1st ,2nd and 3rd round to make things right. Not really!! You need coaches to teach proper technique ,and judge talent correctly and play the right guys and be willing to change things up . You think Marvin and his coaches would do that? No he goes with familiar guys and vets most of the time. Just like the straight incompetence and laziness of going out to get Winston again. You mean there's nobody else out there that's even on the same level as Winston? I doubt it and he looked bad in preseason.

I'm really wanting off this ride with Marvin but I just havnt done it yet. I know for sure I will not put my time into the Bengals with Marvin again next year.

P.s I hope McCarron does get a look this year ,I'm just not a big fan of Dalton or believer. And that's my reason. I think McCarron would be more accurate on throws and more of a leader with better footwork. Not saying he is the answer, I'd actually like to go to the draft this year and just trade Dalton for what you can get.id throw a party to get rid of both him and lewis.

[TSwigZ]

I don’t wanna agree but I do agree

[The Caped Crusader]

Oh, another thread talking about 'issues' but really is a thread disguised so we can ***** about Dalton some more.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-09-2017, 05:21 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Oh, another thread talking about 'issues' but really is a thread disguised so we can ***** about Dalton some more.

Sorry your feelings are hurt ,I'm sure the Dalton army will swarm in by tomorrow and say I'm a dumb ass, and to jump ship if I don't like Dalton and it's all o line cause he only has .5 seconds to release,and everything will be all better and Superbowl bound when we spend a couple years on the o line drafting absolute studs lol

[The Caped Crusader]

(11-09-2017, 05:28 AM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Sorry your feelings are hurt ,I'm sure the Dalton army will swarm in by tomorrow and say I'm a dumb ass, and to jump ship if I don't like Dalton and it's all o line cause he only has .5 seconds to release,and everything will be all better and Superbowl bound when we spend a couple years on the o line drafting absolute studs lol

I had to go back and re-read what I said. I know it's late, perhaps I stated that my feelings were in fact hurt by a not so thoroughly thought out, repetitive, roughly written, irrelevant post with zero logic, reasoning or examples. Hold on, let's see.

Quote:Oh, another thread talking about 'issues' but really is a thread disguised so we can ***** about Dalton some more.

Hmm. Yeah, I didn't state that anywhere.

Ironically, you just went on to actually insult your original argument by attempting to insult the "Dalton army."

Traditionally speaking, yes, successful teams have successful offensive lines...that's crazy. Who would've thought...I mean, I guess someone with little to no Football IQ...Hm.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-09-2017, 05:32 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: I had to go back and re-read what I said. I know it's late, perhaps I stated that my feelings were in fact hurt by a not so thoroughly thought out, repetitive, roughly written, irrelevant post with zero logic, reasoning or examples. Hold on, let's see.





Hmm. Yeah, I didn't state that anywhere.

Ironically, you just went on to actually insult your original argument by attempting to insult the "Dalton army."

Traditionally speaking, yes, successful teams have successful offensive lines...that's crazy. Who would've thought...I mean, I guess someone with little to no Football IQ...Hm.

Yeah all the insults and bitterness= butthurt over Dalton. The usual.

[The Caped Crusader]

(11-09-2017, 05:38 AM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Yeah all the insults and bitterness= butthurt over Dalton. The usual.

Insults? Bitterness? Butt hurt? I'm sorry, it's hard to take anything serious, including an intellectual debate when a grown adult uses the word, 'butt hurt'. I feel like we are on a playground again.

I don't see any of that. Actually everything was fine until you made a remark on my post, the same post that stated how unoriginal, repetitive and unnecessary this was.

If you can actually breakdown why AJ McCarron is a better QB than Andy Dalton, I'd happily listen. Unfortunately, besides his footwork and accuracy, I haven't really seen that. The same team that Dalton had led to the playoffs, with an MVP caliber performance, McCarron came in and played...average? Furthermore, draft analysis and breakdowns say he has the same intangibles, skill level and familiarity of Andy Dalton.

Quote:Weaknesses

Surrounded by an NFL-caliber supporting cast with a very good offensive line that provides a lot of time to dissect the field. Does not have a big-time, vertical arm. Average athlete. Makes occasional bone-headed decisions. Heaves the deep ball and forces receivers to make adjustments. Does not drive the deep out.

Quote:Pocket awareness: This is one area where McCarron is going to have to prove himself. He played behind one of the best offensive lines in college football throughout his career. As a result, he hasn't had to work within a messy pocket as often as most quarterbacks. Still, McCarron has shown an inability to recognized or anticipate the blitz pre snap. He struggles when reacting to pressure as well, often bailing on the pocket too soon or allowing the pressure to screw with his mechanics and decision making.

Quote:Final Word:

Based on his talent, however, McCarron looks like a fourth round pick at best. He is the No. 11 quarterback in our latest rankings.

Dalton's Draft Profile

Quote:[b]Mechanics[/b]

He has a strong over-the-top delivery and good follow through. He has solid footwork on delivery and follow through and keeps the ball high and does not let it drop, even when moving in the pocket. Dalton throws from his shoulder and doesn’t drop the nose of the ball. Has a quick and compact release.
 
[b]Pocket awareness/poise[/b]
A four-year starter for TCU, Dalton is a poised and tough leader who teammates will follow. He has won three Most Valuable Player awards in four Bowl Game appearances at TCU. Dalton does not get rattled in the pocket and can use his mobility to escape if the pocket breaks down. He has a calm about himself in the pocket and is not afraid to stand in until the last minute and take a big hit.

Should be noted that Dalton didn't play behind an all team Collegiate line.


I know. I'm really, really butt hurt with all these facts and breakdowns, some I'm sure you didn't even read because your decision was made up with a monotonous post.

[Bengalboy]

Last season we knew the line wasn't great and needed attention, before this season we knew it had lost its 2 best players, during the season we are seeing the fruits of it all.

Sure Andy isn't an elite QB and he is making mistakes. I think he is seeing Ghosts a bit no doubt. But what the hell do you expect. When you are running for your life 98% of the time. You think he can predict the 2% of the time he doesn't have to run for his life. Each play he is probably mentally ready to get decked. You cant play football effectively with that kind of mental pressure.

Everything this year is down to the Line. Lack of running game .... everything.

Sad thing is i have Zero hope this gets fixed in 1 off-season. We would need multiple FA pickups and a solid Draft of O-line. I just don't see it happening in one off-season.

[*Synric*]

(11-09-2017, 04:12 AM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Ownership , Coaching , and yeah QB also . Im especially frustrated with Coaching and Qb i want them both to just go away. I know Dalton has a army of die hard supporters who will fight to the death for him. But i cant stand his inaccuracy any longer. That one throw he missed up the sidelines to Aj is not a hard throw for a NFL qb to make. If you launch that out of bounds ,I have no hope for you. Every week it's a hand full of throws you can just check mark down that will be overthrown . These are the same throws he came in with in preseason his rookie year,his accuracy is just that inconsistent and bad for your starter ,I don't care what stats people bring up. I see it with my own eyes each game. Also watch the all 22 with goodberry and not only accuracy but he never climbs the pocket when it's available.

And yet even the best deep ball Quarterbacks only make it 50% of the time...

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-09-2017, 09:04 AM)Synric Wrote: And yet even the best deep ball Quarterbacks only make it 50% of the time...

We could put Tom Brady behind the Cincinnati offensive line and he would look terrible.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 07:31 AM)Bengalboy Wrote: Last season we knew the line wasn't great and needed attention, before this season we knew it had lost its 2 best players, during the season we are seeing the fruits of it all.

Sure Andy isn't an elite QB and he is making mistakes. I think he is seeing Ghosts a bit no doubt. But what the hell do you expect. When you are running for your life 98% of the time. You think he can predict the 2% of the time he doesn't have to run for his life. Each play he is probably mentally ready to get decked. You cant play football effectively with that kind of mental pressure.

Everything this year is down to the Line. Lack of running game .... everything.

Sad thing is i have Zero hope this gets fixed in 1 off-season. We would need multiple FA pickups and a solid Draft of O-line. I just don't see it happening in one off-season.

Someone is paying attention.....good post.  Kinda funny a guy from the UK knows football better than some of our fans who have grown up with the sport.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-09-2017, 10:51 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We could put Tom Brady behind the Cincinnati offensive line and he would look terrible.

Hasn't Brady been sacked almost as much as Dalton this season? They're not keeping him as clean as those Pats teams of years past. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-09-2017, 07:31 AM)Bengalboy Wrote: Last season we knew the line wasn't great and needed attention, before this season we knew it had lost its 2 best players, during the season we are seeing the fruits of it all.

Sure Andy isn't an elite QB and he is making mistakes. I think he is seeing Ghosts a bit no doubt. But what the hell do you expect. When you are running for your life 98% of the time. You think he can predict the 2% of the time he doesn't have to run for his life. Each play he is probably mentally ready to get decked. You cant play football effectively with that kind of mental pressure.

Everything this year is down to the Line. Lack of running game .... everything.

Sad thing is i have Zero hope this gets fixed in 1 off-season. We would need multiple FA pickups and a solid Draft of O-line. I just don't see it happening in one off-season.

BINGO !

(11-09-2017, 10:51 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: We could put Tom Brady behind the Cincinnati offensive line and he would look terrible.

Exactly

(11-09-2017, 11:12 AM)Wyche Wrote: Someone is paying attention.....good post.  Kinda funny a guy from the UK knows football better than some of our fans who have grown up with the sport.

Dalton and like 30 of the other starting QB's in the league would struggle mightily to succeed here ! Rodgers might get a couple more wins than Andy. Brady would be going out on a stretcher in just a game or two, he has the moves of a fence post.

They just don't get it !

[THE PISTONS]

Ownership here is Management and they are responsible for correcting problems 2 and 3.

[CageTheBengal]

Man, Tobin is bulletproof.

[*ochocincos*]

I feel that the order of problems regarding those "Top 3" go like:
1) Front Office/ownership
2) Coaching
3) QB

The FO/ownership decides contracts, who to bring in, who to let go, etc. (Some of) the coaches definitely have some say in those things, but ultimately they aren't driving the ship. It was the FO/ownership who decided to let the good OL leave and not offer enough to keep those players here, and the team and the fans are stuck with a terrible OL. FO/ownership is also the most accountable for such a small scouting department that the coaches are expected to also do this role on top of their normal role. That's a lot to put on a coach to also be a scout.

The coaching though is then responsible for developing the talent on the team, and certain coaches have really been dropping the ball for awhile. The most obvious is Paul Alexander. The Bengals haven't drafted a good OL since Kevin Zeitler in 2012, which was five years ago. Now due to the FO/ownership's trust that the coaches would do the necessary to get these players coached up to be good, they've all but buried any chance of success (for this year anyway).

Now onto Dalton. The only negative I'll say about him is he's not a top 10 QB. He depends on having certain pieces around him, but he can get the Bengals deep in the playoffs if certain pieces are available to help him through the whole year. Last year and especially this year, he hasn't had that. He's not able to make plays happen with a shotty OL and/or no-name receivers.

If this franchise is going to turn around, it needs a philosophy change by the FO/ownership first and foremost. That then needs to trickle down to better coaches, and lastly to a better QB (potentially).

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I feel that the order of problems regarding those "Top 3" go like:
1) Front Office/ownership
2) Coaching
3) QB

The FO/ownership decides contracts, who to bring in, who to let go, etc. (Some of) the coaches definitely have some say in those things, but ultimately they aren't driving the ship. It was the FO/ownership who decided to let the good OL leave and not offer enough to keep those players here, and the team and the fans are stuck with a terrible OL. FO/ownership is also the most accountable for such a small scouting department that the coaches are expected to also do this role on top of their normal role. That's a lot to put on a coach to also be a scout.

The coaching though is then responsible for developing the talent on the team, and certain coaches have really been dropping the ball for awhile. The most obvious is Paul Alexander. The Bengals haven't drafted a good OL since Kevin Zeitler in 2012, which was five years ago. Now due to the FO/ownership's trust that the coaches would do the necessary to get these players coached up to be good, they've all but buried any chance of success (for this year anyway).

Now onto Dalton. The only negative I'll say about him is he's not a top 10 QB. He depends on having certain pieces around him, but he can get the Bengals deep in the playoffs if certain pieces are available to help him through the whole year. Last year and especially this year, he hasn't had that. He's not able to make plays happen with a shotty OL and/or no-name receivers.

If this franchise is going to turn around, it needs a philosophy change by the FO/ownership first and foremost. That then needs to trickle down to better coaches, and lastly to a better QB (potentially).

Yeah...2-3-4 years ago, and not winning a playoff game, I'd say the problem was coaching then.

Going into an offseason where we know the offensive line had issues, then letting the 2 best guys go...that's on Management. It's on Management for keeping Alexander too.

I think the biggest problem areas can shift.

[muskiesfan]

Listen, Andy Dalton is not a perfect QB. Andy is not elite. He is well above average, but he's not a top tier QB. He needs to be kept clean. His career has proven that when given time, he can be a top 11-15 QB though. Maybe even a 9-10 QB, but that's going to be it.

One of the biggest problems that has hurt his production is our lack of a running game. With the exception of 2014, the Bengals are usually around 19-20 in rushing yards and 22nd or worst in yards per carry. Sure, other QBs deal with a lackluster rushing attack, but those teams usually try to offset that with quick, short throws. Not the Bengals. Since he has been here, Marvin Lewis has always said he wants to be a run first team because of playing in the AFCN. So regardless of OC or OLine play, we continue to try and pound the ball for negative or no gains and put ourselves in obvious passing situations. Telegraphing your offense is bad coaching and puts yourself in a tough spot. Insisting on forcing the run game when it's not working is also not helpful.

You can call me all the names you want and say I'm making all of the excuses you want, but facts are facts. Dalton does not benefit from a good ground game, he does not benefit from good coaching, and he's currently not benefiting from his OLine's play. A lot of these issues come from coaching. I'd like to see what Dalton can do with improved coaching and improved OLine play. If he's still not getting it done, maybe it is time to move on from him. I just feel he should get the same benefit of the doubt that the other players get. If we think improved coaching would help them, why wouldn't it help Dalton.

Yes, Dalton makes mistakes but he's held to a much different standard by Bengals fans. He should've made that throw to Green against the Jags, but missing it doesn't make him bad at the deep ball. The guy is always at or near the top of the league as a deep ball passer. No, he doesn't have a big arm but it's strong enough to make the throws. He's also a pretty accurate QB overall. Besides his rookie year, he consistently puts up a completion percentage of low to mid 60s. You're attacking parts of his game that he's actually pretty good at. If you want to talk about how he needs better pocket awareness or footwork, those are valid.

The reason you say things like "Andy Army" (so dumb) will rush to defend him is because you attack his strengths. He's plenty good enough to help this team win. The one constant is the head coach who has a horrible postseason and prime time record regardless of his QBs. The issue is bigger than Dalton. Again, he has weaknesses and areas he needs to improve. If you want to talk about those and say you feel those are reasons we should move on, that's a legitimate discussion. But saying he's inaccurate and throws a poor deep ball, those are simply not true and why people will call you on it.

[*Nately120*]

QBs who aren't hot garbage who are willing to take team friendly deals and play for Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis
1. Andy Dalton
2.

[muskiesfan]

The whole accuracy comment and how Joe Goodberry is the end all be all on this and the fact you said you don't care about stats really throws me off. I'm guessing completion percentage means nothing. I know this is a waste of my time, but here we go.

Andy Dalton career completion percentage - 62.7%. Using only 2011-2017 here are some other QBs (no, I didn't look up everyone. I just tried to keep it recent)

Andrew Luck - 59.2%
Cam Newton - 58.8%
Joe Flacco - 61.5%
Eli Manning - 61.4%
Jameis Winston - 60.0%
Blake Bortles - 58.9%
Carson Wentz - 61.8%
Derek Carr - 61.5%
Alex Smith - 62.3%
Matthew Stafford - 61.5%
Jared Goff - 57.7%
Carson Palmer - 62%
Marcus Mariota - 62%
Brian Hoyer - 59.3%
DeShone Kizer - 52.1%
CJ Beathard - 50.9%
Trevor Siemian - 60.2%
Brock Osweiler - 59.4%
Jacoby Brissett - 61.2%
Josh McCown - 62.6%
Jay Cutler - 62.6%

While I agree completion percentage obviously doesn't equal top QB. I'm just saying of these guys are at or below Dalton. If Dalton is inaccurate because of your eye test and Goodberry's word, does that make all of this other QBs inaccurate as well? I just want to see if this is strictly a Dalton thing or if we're going to apply it to everyone.