The big 3 is the problem

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do good: Top 1/3 of the league in passer rating, 2.5 TDs to every INT, hold your supporting cast accountable for their shortcomings. 

Josh McGown is doing good at NYJ, Kirk Cousins is doing good at Wash

And just how does he go about doing this?  Bench the entire line in front of him?  Give them a blocking scheme developed in this century?  Or maybe just scream a lot at people who do not have it in them to be better?  Or maybe let's hear your ideas for your well thought out and not off the cuff solution.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 02:44 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The Jets are 4-5 (3-5 before beating the Bills) and averaging 99 rushing yards per game.

The Redskins are 4-4 (3-4 before beating Seattle) and averaging 107 rushing yards per game.

The Bengals are 3-5 (3-4 before losing to the Jags) and averaging only 72 rushing yards per game.

So, despite the fact that they have better QB stats, better running games and better lines...they still only have one more win than the Bengals. 

Who mentioned anything about wins; as I understand wins are a team effort? But let's point to something else that can attribute to wins. Defense:

Cincy is 6th in the NFL in YPG, Washington is 18th, NYJ is 24th.

We are 11th in points per game, NYJ is 17th and Wash is 24th.

So despite the fact that they have much worse defenses they still have one more win.

You can introduce stats all day if you want and I can easily counter because Andy is what he is. A mid-tier QB and currently performing much worse than the likes of McCown and Cousins in similar situations. Hell poor ole Jacoby Brissett is in his first year as a starter under much worse conditions and has a the same amount of wins and comparable passer rting to Dalton. 

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 02:34 PM)McC Wrote: Maybe you missed what being a Bengal did to the previous QB, the Golden Boy, the human Juggs gun, the guy who took the league by storm and ended up refusing to play another down here.  There can't be any similarities at all. 

Tell you this right now--bring in another QB, spend a high pick on one, sit back, watch it all come apart for him too.   Maybe then you'll see a pattern.  Or will it take two more, five more, ten more?  This is where QB's go to get their asses kicked.  Sure, turn the page, bring in another one.  Give him a patchwork line and no running game and bad schemes and sit back and watch the deja vu unfold.

You are very focused on just the o Line and sounds like you guys think just stick with Dalton,get a great o line and were going to be in there. But... he's showed the same stuff except 2015 being the outlier. I agree with you the Bengals organization let the o line go to crap for Palmer, the difference is he was a #1 pick and a lot more talented. Has Andy Dalton had a bad o line the whole time here? No . And they have tried to draft a lot of weapons for him. He's got a big weapon in green which accounts for something big that a lot of qbs don't have except Matt Ryan, that also factors into the equation. 

Also I also put coaching in there because they are responsible for trying new things with the o line and ownership too they are both one of the same,complacent . Two guys really stink the o line up and that's turnstile ced and blowdine . It's just when Dalton does have time ,he still has bad flaws which we could be better off. We can go max out the o line for the next year or two and I'm sure Dalton will have more excuses from his defenders,it's always going to be something. I can't stand watching him not give his receivers a chance at the ball atleast. This is year 7 for gods sake and your vet qb does that. Is he a franchise qb ? Not in my eyes, might as well dump his salary while you can in my book. But Marvin don't have the balls. It's going to take a new coach to do that. The goal is to win a ring for once for this city and not lose soon as we get to the playoffs.

Here's another stat for the stat boys. At this point in time Andy Dalton and Trent dilfer have about the same amount of games played and the same amount of wins. Since everyone says Dalton all he does is win. Was Trent dilfer a good qb?put Trent dilfer on a different team and he doesn't have all them wins.

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 02:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who mentioned anything about wins; as I understand wins are a team effort? But let's point to something else that can attribute to wins. Defense:

Cincy is 6th in the NFL in YPG, Washington is 18th, NYJ is 24th.

We are 11th in points per game, NYJ is 17th and Wash is 24th.

So despite the fact that they have much worse defenses they still have one more win.

You can introduce stats all day if you want and I can easily counter because Andy is what he is. A mid-tier QB and currently performing much worse than the likes of McCown and Cousins in similar situations. Hell poor ole Jacoby Brissett is in his first year as a starter under much worse conditions and has a the same amount of wins and comparable passer rting to Dalton. 

Still a man hears what he wants to hear

And disregards the rest…

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 02:56 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: You are very focused on just the o Lind and sounds like you guts think just stick with Dalton,get a great o line and were going to be in there. But... he's showed the same stuff except 2015 being the outlier. I agree with you the Bengals organization let the o line go to crap for Palmer, the difference is he was a #1 pick and a lot more talented. Has Andy Dalton had a bad o line the whole time here? No . And they have tried to draft a lot of weapons for him. He's got a big weapon in green which accounts for something big that a lot of qbs don't have except Matt Ryan, that also factors into the equation. 

Also I also put coaching in there because they are responsible for trying new things with the o line and ownership too they are both one of the same,complacent . Two guys really stink the o line up and that's turnstile ced and blowdine . It's just when Dalton does have time ,he still has bad flaws which we could be better off. We can go max out the o line for the next year or two and I'm sure Dalton will have more excuses from his defenders,it's always going to be something. I can't stand watching him not give his receivers a chance at the ball atleast. This is year 7 foir gods sake and your vet qb does that. Is he a franchise qb ? Not in my eyes, might as well jump his salary while you can in my book. But Marvin don't have the balls. It's going to take a new coach to do that. The goal is to win a ring for once for this city and not lose soon as we get to the playoffs.

Here's another stat for the stat boys. At this point in time Andy Dalton and Trent dilfer have about the same amount of games played and the same amount of wins. Since everyone says Dalton all he does is win. Was Trent dilfer a good qb?put Trent dilfer on a different team and he doesn't have all them wins.

It's not so much defending Dalton as defending the obvious truths which you seem so willing to ignore. 

When people are coming at a QB from every direction so often, do you think he will be able to just calmly stand there on the rare occasion he does have time and survey the field?  Let's see, AJ is triple covered and he's not open, he's not open, oops, here they come.  When they regularly are all over him, what does he expect will happen?  They're not here yet but they will be soon.

How does he get that thought out of his head?  If he doesn't even feel safe, how the **** can he feel confident?

Andy is not good under extreme pressure.  Everybody knows that.  That should have been known from day one.  Knowing this, what is of the utmost importance?  Protection.  If you know he needs protection and you let his line turn to complete shit, have you set him, and your entire offense, up to fail or succeed?

And the running game?  Enuff said.

He shouldn't be getting shit from people.  He should be getting a medal for courage and a very big apology.

But yeah, let's bring in the next victim and in three years or less, you'll be calling for his head too and still not seeing a pattern.

[*Synric*]

(11-11-2017, 02:56 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: You are very focused on just the o Line and sounds like you guys think just stick with Dalton,get a great o line and were going to be in there. But... he's showed the same stuff except 2015 being the outlier. I agree with you the Bengals organization let the o line go to crap for Palmer, the difference is he was a #1 pick and a lot more talented. Has Andy Dalton had a bad o line the whole time here? No . And they have tried to draft a lot of weapons for him. He's got a big weapon in green which accounts for something big that a lot of qbs don't have except Matt Ryan, that also factors into the equation. 

Also I also put coaching in there because they are responsible for trying new things with the o line and ownership too they are both one of the same,complacent . Two guys really stink the o line up and that's turnstile ced and blowdine . It's just when Dalton does have time ,he still has bad flaws which we could be better off. We can go max out the o line for the next year or two and I'm sure Dalton will have more excuses from his defenders,it's always going to be something. I can't stand watching him not give his receivers a chance at the ball atleast. This is year 7 for gods sake and your vet qb does that. Is he a franchise qb ? Not in my eyes, might as well jump his salary while you can in my book. But Marvin don't have the balls. It's going to take a new coach to do that. The goal is to win a ring for once for this city and not lose soon as we get to the playoffs.

Here's another stat for the stat boys. At this point in time Andy Dalton and Trent dilfer have about the same amount of games played and the same amount of wins. Since everyone says Dalton all he does is win. Was Trent dilfer a good qb?put Trent dilfer on a different team and he doesn't have all them wins.

I think most people are saying it would probably be a better idea to roll with a veteran QB fix the line then evaluate the QB position. Cuz no matter who is under center there is a very very good chance they won't look any better than Dalton.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 02:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: McCown has 1.86 TD's to every INT, so he wouldn't meet your criteria.

Only 9 QB's meet your criteria this year. Only 5 of those have been sacked 20+ times. Here's the run-game rankings for those 5 QB's:

Alex Smith/Chiefs: 12th in yards - 3rd in yards/carry
Tom Brady/Patriots: 16th in yards - 21st in yards/carry
Carson Wentz/Eagles: 3rd in yards - 7th in yards/carry
Kirk Cousins/Redskins: 21st in yards - 22nd in yards/carry
Russell Wilson: 19th in yards - 23rd in yards/carry

Not only is Dalton getting sacked/pressured/hit at a higher rate than any of these guys, his run game is far worse. Only 8 teams are averaging less than 92.1 yards per game. We're at 72.3. It's the worst figure in team history. As is the 3.1 yards/carry. If you can find numerous examples of QB's meeting your own criteria in similar circumstances, I salute you.

You may have left out Tyrod Taylor. So he, Kirk Cousins, Tom Brady, and Russell Wilson are in situations similar to Andy and meet the criteria (Career journeymen Josh McCown falls just short). I wonder how much Russell Wilson's 51 carries at 5.7 YPC aids the Seattle rushing numbers. I appreciate the salute on Veterans Day. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 02:56 PM)McC Wrote: Still a man hears what he wants to hear

And disregards the rest…

I suppose you lost me. 

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 03:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose you lost me. 

Oh, I don't think so.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 02:56 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: You are very focused on just the o Lind and sounds like you guts think just stick with Dalton,get a great o line and were going to be in there. 1. But... he's showed the same stuff except 2015 being the outlier. I agree with you the Bengals organization let the o line go to crap for Palmer, the difference is he was a #1 pick and a lot more talented. 2. Has Andy Dalton had a bad o line the whole time here? No . 3. And they have tried to draft a lot of weapons for him. He's got a big weapon in green which accounts for something big that a lot of qbs don't have except Matt Ryan, that also factors into the equation. 

Also I also put coaching in there because they are responsible for trying new things with the o line and ownership too they are both one of the same,complacent . Two guys really stink the o line up and that's turnstile ced and blowdine . It's just when Dalton does have time ,he still has bad flaws which we could be better off. We can go max out the o line for the next year or two and I'm sure Dalton will have more excuses from his defenders,it's always going to be something. 4. I can't stand watching him not give his receivers a chance at the ball atleast. This is year 7 foir gods sake and your vet qb does that. Is he a franchise qb ? Not in my eyes, might as well jump his salary while you can in my book. But Marvin don't have the balls. It's going to take a new coach to do that. The goal is to win a ring for once for this city and not lose soon as we get to the playoffs.

Here's another stat for the stat boys. At this point in time Andy Dalton and Trent dilfer have about the same amount of games played and the same amount of wins. Since everyone says Dalton all he does is win. Was Trent dilfer a good qb?put Trent dilfer on a different team and he doesn't have all them wins.

1. Same stuff? He had 4300 yards and 35 TDs in 2013. 3700 yards and 31 TDs in 2012. 4200 yards and 22 TDs last year.

2. And he produced when the line was decent.

3. Key word being "tried". The only time Andy's weapons lived up to the hype was 2013 and 2015. Dalton broke all kinds of records those 2 years.

4. I assume you're talking about deep balls again. I already showed you that Dalton has fine stats on the deep ball. Sure "stats", but those completions, yards and TD's all happened in real life.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:06 PM)McC Wrote: It's not so much defending Dalton as defending the obvious truths which you seem so willing to ignore. 

When people are coming at a QB from every direction so often, do you think he will be able to just calmly stand there on the rare occasion he does have time and survey the field?  Let's see, AJ is triple covered and he's not open, he's not open, oops, here they come.  When they regularly are all over him, what does he expect will happen?  They're not here yet but they will be soon.

How does he get that thought out of his head?  If he doesn't even feel safe, how the **** can he feel confident?

Andy is not good under extreme pressure.  Everybody knows that.  That should have been known from day one.  Knowing this, what is of the utmost importance?  Protection.  If you know he needs protection and you let his line turn to complete shit, have you set him, and your entire offense, up to fail or succeed?

And the running game?  Enuff said.

He shouldn't be getting shit from people.  He should be getting a medal for courage and a very big apology.

But yeah, let's bring in the next victim and in three years or less, you'll be calling for his head too and still not seeing a pattern.

Thats just the way it is he is the qb that dont show alot of talent ,hes mid tier at best talent wise. Go around to each team and they argue the qb if they arent doing good. I get your points about run game and o line play. Where I don't get your points is ,he doesn't always have  .5 seconds to throw. There's plenty of opportunities that I've seen where he just sails it. I already know a few things about him. He shows no leadership,no passion except 2015,he shows to be too inconsistent on accuracy ,he doest climb the pocket or maneuver with his feet in the pocket,he leaves the pocket when he doesn't have too. He puts his head down and surrenders to sacks. It's all on tape guys all you have to do to re evaluate the game is watch goodberry on twitter every week ,they desect the games for y'all to see what's going on.ige been following him and others for a few years and seen the flaws on tape. I've studied Dalton and heard everyone's opinions on him for 7 years. I was never a big fan of him from the beginning talent wise.the 2013 playoffs was very depressing to watch 4 straight turnovers by your golden boy.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 03:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You may have left out Tyrod Taylor. So he, Kirk Cousins, Tom Brady, and Russell Wilson are in situations similar to Andy and meet the criteria (Career journeymen Josh McCown falls just short). I wonder how much Russell Wilson's 51 carries at 5.7 YPC aids the Seattle rushing numbers. I appreciate the salute on Veterans Day. 

Likewise. 

Tyrod Taylor didn't have a rating in the top 1/3rd of the league. 

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Same stuff? He had 4300 yards and 35 TDs in 2013. 3700 yards and 31 TDs in 2012. 4200 yards and 22 TDs last year.

2. And he produced when the line was decent.

3. Key word being "tried". The only time Andy's weapons lived up to the hype was 2013 and 2015. Dalton broke all kinds of records those 2 years.

4. I assume you're talking about deep balls again. I already showed you that Dalton has fine stats on the deep ball. Sure "stats", but those completions, yards and TD's all happened in real life.

No it's not just deep balls,even misses short throws ,too high ,or behind the receiver. 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 03:19 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: No it's not just deep balls,even misses short throws ,too high ,or behind the receiver. 

Yes this is happening more frequently this year. I can't imagine why.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 03:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Likewise. 

Tyrod Taylor didn't have a rating in the top 1/3rd of the league. 

No doubt, He missed it by 1 place (12th instead of 11th). Let's adjust my criteria to a passer rating over 95 (A number Andy has surpassed once in his 7 year career)

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 03:17 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Thats just the way it is he is the qb that dont show alot of talent ,hes mid tier at best talent wise. Go around to each team and they argue the qb if they arent doing good. I get your points about run game and o line play. Where I don't get your points is ,he doesn't always have  .5 seconds to throw. There's plenty of opportunities that I've seen where he just sails it. I already know a few things about him. He shows no leadership,no passion except 2015,he shows to be too inconsistent on accuracy ,he doest climb the pocket or maneuver with his feet in the pocket,he leaves the pocket when he doesn't have too. He puts his head down and surrenders to sacks. It's all on tape guys all you have to do to re evaluate the game is watch goodberry on twitter every week ,they desect the games for y'all to see what's going on.ige been following him and others for a few years and seen the flaws on tape. I've studied Dalton and heard everyone's opinions on him for 7 years. I was never a big fan of him from the beginning talent wise.the 2013 playoffs was very depressing to watch 4 straight turnovers by your golden boy.

This'll go a lot better if you stop saying stupid shit, okay?  Never have I said anything to suggest he's my golden boy.  But, unlike you, I am able to see both sides of the coin.  Don' think for a second I don't scream when he runs out of the pocket and sails the ball into the stands.   Pisses me off too.  But I see where it comes from.

His coaches yell at him, don't take sacks, don't throw int's.  Live to fight another day.  He drops back, it's third and eight, nine, ten, twelve, depending on how many yards the running back lost on first down.  The defense is sending the house.  End of story.  Punt.

Yes, he misses open guys or doesn't see them.  It's infuriating.  But it's not happening in a vacuum.  There are multiple reasons for it.  He didn't forget how to play.  The poor bastid is shell shocked. 

He may be done here.  But he looked done at the end of '14 and came back the next year to have his best season.  Give him a fighting chance, something his offense can hang its hat on,  some way to get first downs, a HC who realizes it's not the 20th century any more and let's see what happens. 

No matter who the QB is, the other issues have to be addressed first.  Doesn't take the ghost of Lombardi to see that.

Andy deserves blame but he ain't the biggest problem in any way, shape or form.

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 02:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who mentioned anything about wins; as I understand wins are a team effort? But let's point to something else that can attribute to wins. Defense:

Cincy is 6th in the NFL in YPG, Washington is 18th, NYJ is 24th.

We are 11th in points per game, NYJ is 17th and Wash is 24th.

So despite the fact that they have much worse defenses they still have one more win.

You can introduce stats all day if you want and I can easily counter because Andy is what he is. A mid-tier QB and currently performing much worse than the likes of McCown and Cousins in similar situations. Hell poor ole Jacoby Brissett is in his first year as a starter under much worse conditions and has a the same amount of wins and comparable passer rting to Dalton. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the end of the day...wins and losses are what it's all about, correct? Yes, wins are a 'team effort' and the point is that it's about much more than a QB rating.

You've made a point of bringing up the QB stats, and examples like Cousins and McCown. However, those stats haven't led their teams to have a season all that different than the Bengals. How is it that either would necessarily 'do better' here than Andy? Have better stat lines? I'm not convinced that does anything to change the 3-5 record, namely because all the other issues would still exist.

Since there's been so much focus on stats / rankings, I'll throw this out there -
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-nfl-qb-rankings-by-pff-grade-after-week-9

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yes this is happening more frequently this year. I can't imagine why.

Lol not just this year ,why would I just go off one year when I've seen his whole career.2015 being a good year . But here's something one of my buddies brought up in my group . In 2015 Daltons go to year that everyone can look at. Carson Palmer killed Andy's stats close to 5000 yards and 35 tds.  And Palmer wasn't good enough to beat cam Newtons Panthers. In a pass happy league that it's not too hard to get 4000 yards especially with a green to throw too . Dalton only has gotten 4000 yards twice , one of them being only 17 tds 4000 yards .

[*jason*]

Big three?

1 O-line
2 O-line
3 O-line

Because the offensive line is putrid, the Bengals have no running game. All 3 of the backs have a sorry YPC. Mixon's talent was comparable to Fournette's coming into the draft. His performance, along with the performance of his once highly regarded running mates, hasnt added up.

Because the offensive line sucks, a former pro bowl QB, and MVP candidate looks shell shocked. There is no play action, he rarely has time to go through progressions, and he gets pummled regularly.

Because the offensive line is trash, the defense lives on the field.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 03:13 PM)McC Wrote: Oh, I don't think so.

Your thoughts aside; you have lost me. I do not know what you were referring to