The big 3 is the problem

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:31 PM)McC Wrote: This'll go a lot better if you stop saying stupid shit, okay?  Never have I said anything to suggest he's my golden boy.  But, unlike you, I am able to see both sides of the coin.  Don' think for a second I don't scream when he runs out of the pocket and sails the ball into the stands.   Pisses me off too.  But I see where it comes from.

His coaches yell at him, don't take sacks, don't throw int's.  Live to fight another day.  He drops back, it's third and eight, nine, ten, twelve, depending on how many yards the running back lost on first down.  The defense is sending the house.  End of story.  Punt.

Yes, he misses open guys or doesn't see them.  It's infuriating.  But it's not happening in a vacuum.  There are multiple reasons for it.  He didn't forget how to play.  The poor bastid is shell shocked. 

He may be done here.  But he looked done at the end of '14 and came back the next year to have his best season.  Give him a fighting chance, something his offense can hang its hat on,  some way to get first downs, a HC who realizes it's not the 20th century any more and let's see what happens. 

No matter who the QB is, the other issues have to be addressed first.  Doesn't take the ghost of Lombardi to see that.

Andy deserves blame but he ain't the biggest problem in any way, shape or form.

Lol atleast I know your human and it pisses you off

[*Synric*]

(11-11-2017, 03:34 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol not just this year ,why would I just go off one year when I've seen his whole career.2015 being a good year . But here's something one of my buddies brought up in my group . In 2015 Daltons go to year that everyone can look at. Carson Palmer killed Andy's stats close to 5000 yards and 35 tds.  And Palmer wasn't good enough to beat cam Newtons Panthers. In a pass happy league that it's not too hard to get 4000 yards especially with a green to throw too . Dalton only has gotten 4000 yards twice , one of them being only 17 tds 4000 yards .

You are completely missing the point.

 Even if Andy isn't the answer at QB with the situation the Bengals are in right now replacing him won't solve any problems. First they need fix thr offensive line issue.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:38 PM)Synric Wrote: You are completely missing the point.

 Even if Andy isn't the answer at QB with the situation the Bengals are in right now replacing him won't solve any problems. First they need fix thr offensive line issue.

Well I am a die hard Bengals fan I wish they'd go win out and go to the Superbowl. I wish the coach would make adjustments to the o line and Andy played great. But if I know marvin he won't fix much.  If like to see if McCarron would do any better then Dalton for 2-3 games . I'd also like to take advantage of a nice draft of qbs, I don't care if there's a qb competition . Or if the new qb has to sit for awhile,atleast prepare this team.  Not wait another two years to train a young guy.thats just my conclusion and on my wishlist.

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 03:34 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol not just this year ,why would I just go off one year when I've seen his whole career.2015 being a good year . But here's something one of my buddies brought up in my group . In 2015 Daltons go to year that everyone can look at. Carson Palmer killed Andy's stats close to 5000 yards and 35 tds.  And Palmer wasn't good enough to beat cam Newtons Panthers. In a pass happy league that it's not too hard to get 4000 yards especially with a green to throw too . Dalton only has gotten 4000 yards twice , one of them being only 17 tds 4000 yards .

What does Palmer have to do with it?

And you keep ignoring the enormous impact of no running game, the worst line in the game and terrible coaching, the triumvirate of death to QB's.   You can't seem to grasp the maddeningly simple concept of the sum of its parts, of a multitude of factors that add up to a brick wall in front of the offense and, by extension, the whole team.  How on earth does that all fall on one guy's shoulders?  That's preposterous.  Keep ignoring the mountain of truths and just focus on the one thing.

Like I said, bring on the next victim and see how long it is before you're wanting him gone.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 03:45 PM)McC Wrote: What does Palmer have to do with it?

And you keep ignoring the enormous impact of no running game, the worst line in the game and terrible coaching, the triumvirate of death to QB's.   You can't seem to grasp the maddeningly simple concept of the sum of its parts, of a multitude of factors that add up to a brick wall in front of the offense and, by extension, the whole team.  How on earth does that all fall on one guy's shoulders?  That's preposterous.  Keep ignoring the mountain of truths and just focus on the one thing.

Like I said, bring on the next victim and see how long it is before you're wanting him gone.

Because everyone thinks Dalton was elite that year and that was the tell all sign he turned the corner ,when there's Palmer a qb who has 0 rings blew his stats away that's what.

I'm not ignoring your claim. I know the o line is bad,I know there is a sorry run game,I'm just not giving Dalton a pass for his bad play either. I've seen his whole career to make a decision on what he is. Like I said next year will be a new excuse,and so on.im tired of it.im tired of waiting for the Bengals to come back and it's the same crap.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 03:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the end of the day...wins and losses are what it's all about, correct? Yes, wins are a 'team effort' and the point is that it's about much more than a QB rating.

You've made a point of bringing up the QB stats, and examples like Cousins and McCown. However, those stats haven't led their teams to have a season all that different than the Bengals. How is it that either would necessarily 'do better' here than Andy? Have better stat lines? I guess we could at least boast that we're a 3-5 team with a pretty QB rating.

If we're taking all stats and rankings into consideration, then I might as well throw this out there -

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-nfl-qb-rankings-by-pff-grade-after-week-9

It's really not a difficult concept. They have proven that they are performing better than Andy with similar situations.

Couple that with a defense (a dynamic you have chosen to ignore) that  is anywhere from 10-20 places better and you have more wins.

Decent games by the QB in the Jax, Texans, Ravens, and Pitt games and our record may look much different. Conversely Cousins has lost 2 games this year in which he had a passer rating over 110

And finally I have no idea what posting analysis by PFF has to do with stats. 

[*Synric*]

(11-11-2017, 03:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really not a difficult concept. They have proven that they are performing better than Andy with similar situations. Couple that with a defense (a dynamic you have chosen to ignore) that  is anywhere from 10-20 places better and you have more wins. Decent games by the QB in the Jax, Texans, Ravens, and Pitt games and our record may look much different. Conversely Cousins has lost 2 games this year in which he had a passer rating over 110/


And finally I have no idea what posting analysis by PFF has to do with stats. 

Better line play would improve the the Quarterback play along with the running game.


I don't think you understand how bad the line play is right now. Youre saying these teams are having line problems that's true but not near the level of the Bengals right now. Cincy has the worst Offensive line in football.

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 04:07 PM)Synric Wrote: Better line play would improve the the Quarterback play along with the running game.


I don't think you understand how bad the line play is right now. Youre saying these teams are having line problems that's true but not near the level of the Bengals right now. Cincy has the worst Offensive line in football.

It is impossible to argue with opinion. Sure our oline may be the worst in the NFL; someone's has to be. I simply joined the fray to dispute the oft used "No QB could do good behind this line"; which is also just an opinion. My opinion is that there are QBs that can and some that currently do. Andy's current rating of 86.5 is not far off from his career rating of 88.9. So maybe, just maybe there is more to Andy's poor play than the worst Oline in the history of the NFL. 

As the OP suggested: There is always an excuse. When you continually have to look for excuses to prop up somebody, they might not be worth propping up. 

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 03:50 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Because everyone thinks Dalton was elite that year and that was the tell all sign he turned the corner ,when there's Palmer a qb who has 0 rings blew his stats away that's what.

I'm not ignoring your claim. I know the o line is bad,I know there is a sorry run game,I'm just not giving Dalton a pass for his bad play either. I've seen his whole career to make a decision on what he is. Like I said next year will be a new excuse,and so on.im tired of it.im tired of waiting for the Bengals to come back and it's the same crap.

Right there, in bold, two things, known as death to QB's, with very few exceptions.

I haven't see anyone giving Andy  a pass.  Also, an explanation and an excuse are two entirely different things.

The same crap--this predates anyone currently on the roster.  The same crap--also known as The Bengal Way.  It's bigger than any coach or player.  You might call it "How To Never Win A SB." 

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 03:17 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Thats just the way it is he is the qb that dont show alot of talent ,hes mid tier at best talent wise. Go around to each team and they argue the qb if they arent doing good. I get your points about run game and o line play. Where I don't get your points is ,he doesn't always have  .5 seconds to throw. There's plenty of opportunities that I've seen where he just sails it. I already know a few things about him. He shows no leadership,no passion except 2015,he shows to be too inconsistent on accuracy ,he doest climb the pocket or maneuver with his feet in the pocket,he leaves the pocket when he doesn't have too. He puts his head down and surrenders to sacks. It's all on tape guys all you have to do to re evaluate the game is watch goodberry on twitter every week ,they desect the games for y'all to see what's going on.ige been following him and others for a few years and seen the flaws on tape. I've studied Dalton and heard everyone's opinions on him for 7 years. I was never a big fan of him from the beginning talent wise.the 2013 playoffs was very depressing to watch 4 straight turnovers by your golden boy.

The pocket.  Andy wants to know what this pocket thing of which you speak?  Is that the thing where guys are coming from both ends and up the middle?  Oh, okay, it's the pocket of humanity coming at him unblocked, those same guys waiting in the backfield for any of our RB's as they take the handoff.

Let's see, climbing the pocket.  Is that where he climbs on the backs of one or more of the several rushers coming from every direction?  Cuz that's about the only way he's climbing anything other than climbing up off the ground.

[bengalsturntup5532]

(11-11-2017, 04:40 PM)McC Wrote: The pocket.  Andy wants to know what this pocket thing of which you speak?  Is that the thing where guys are coming from both ends and up the middle?  Oh, okay, it's the pocket of humanity coming at him unblocked, those same guys waiting in the backfield for any of our RB's as they take the handoff.

Let's see, climbing the pocket.  Is that where he climbs on the backs of one or more of the several rushers coming from every direction?  Cuz that's about the only way he's climbing anything other than climbing up off the ground.

Lol ok have it your way he only gets .5 seconds every snap just like last year they said.  Go watch all 22 , but id bet you wouldnt know what your looking at.

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 03:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really not a difficult concept. They have proven that they are performing better than Andy with similar situations.

Until each of those guys have played behind this line (where all 5 starters have played poorly to horribly), and with this running game (which is tied for the 10th lowest ypc average during the SB era) ... it's hard to call them similar situations.

Quote:Couple that with a defense (a dynamic you have chosen to ignore) that  is anywhere from 10-20 places better and you have more wins.

That's a lot of assuming. Even with this defense...you're assuming they would play better behind this line, with this running game and under these coaches than Andy has. 
 

Quote:Decent games by the QB in the Jax, Texans, Ravens, and Pitt games and our record may look much different. Conversely Cousins has lost 2 games this year in which he had a passer rating over 110/

They lost to GB and Andy has a 124 rating. They win that game, he has the same number of wins as Cousins and McCown.

[*Synric*]

(11-11-2017, 04:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is impossible to argue with opinion. Sure our oline may be the worst in the NFL; someone's has to be. I simply joined the fray to dispute the oft used "No QB could do good behind this line"; which is also just an opinion. My opinion is that there are QBs that can and some that currently do. Andy's current rating of 86.5 is not far off from his career rating of 88.9. So maybe, just maybe there is more to Andy's poor play than the worst Oline in the history of the NFL. 

As the OP suggested: There is always an excuse. When you continually have to look for excuses to prop up somebody, they might not be worth propping up. 

Just with that statement your whole argument loses all credibility....

[McC]

(11-11-2017, 04:44 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol ok have it your way he only gets .5 seconds every snap just like last year they said.  Go watch all 22 , but id bet you wouldnt know what your looking at.

So you're calling me stupid?

[*bfine32*]

(11-11-2017, 04:45 PM)Synric Wrote: Just with that statement your whole argument loses all credibility....

Arguments could be made that Indy's line is worse as they have given up 36 sacks this year and their running game is at 3.6 YPC. Consideration could also be given to Arizona who has surrendered 26 sacks and has a running game averaging 3.0 YPC.

But if you saying Sure, our oline may be the worst in the NFL causes the rest of my argument to "lose all credibility" then it must be true. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-11-2017, 04:44 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol ok have it your way he only gets .5 seconds every snap just like last year they said.  Go watch all 22 , but id bet you wouldnt know what your looking at.

I've watched All 22 and have even posted a couple of them on the blog.

I've also listened to Dave Lapham, who's a former lineman and who watches every play of every game. 

His opinion is that Andy's play is suffering because of the beatings he's taking on a weekly basis.

There's no doubt that Andy still makes bad decisions at times, but you can't discount the effects that playing behind a horrible line has on a QB.

[*Synric*]

(11-11-2017, 04:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Arguments could be made that Indy's line is worse as they have given up 36 sacks this year and their running game is at 3.6 YPC. Consideration could also be given to Arizona who has surrendered 26 sacks and has a running game averaging 3.0 YPC.

But if you saying Sure, our oline may be the worst in the NFL causes the rest of my argument to "lose all credibility" then it must be true. 

How many pressures? QB Hits? How often is the RB hit behind the line of scrimmage? How often are they in 3rd and long situations? How many yards (Ground and Air) and points per game do each average? 

Sacks and YPC isn't a tell all.


Vs Indy Dalton was hit on 35% of his drop backs...35% that is outrageous.

[CornerBlitz]

(11-11-2017, 05:00 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I've watched All 22 and have even posted a couple of them on the blog.

I've also listened to Dave Lapham, who's a former lineman and who watches every play of every game. 

His opinion is that Andy's play is suffering because of the beatings he's taking on a weekly basis.

There's no doubt that Andy still makes bad decisions at times, but you can't discount the effects that playing behind a horrible line has on a QB.

Nobody is discounting the inferior O line. What others are trying to point out is that there are plenty of QBs in the NFL that would overcome those deficiencies and play at a much higher level than Dalton.

He's had the luxury of having a top 5 WR his entire career and above average o line play his entire career besides this season.....so enough with the excuses. 

[CornerBlitz]

I just don't get what people see in this QB to think he can lead or be good enough to take us to the promise land. We're in this to win Super Bowls not just play mediocre to bad every season.

Andy Dalton has played poorly to average his entire career besides one season. Enough is enough.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-11-2017, 03:34 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Lol not just this year ,why would I just go off one year when I've seen his whole career.2015 being a good year . But here's something one of my buddies brought up in my group . In 2015 Daltons go to year that everyone can look at. Carson Palmer killed Andy's stats close to 5000 yards and 35 tds.  And Palmer wasn't good enough to beat cam Newtons Panthers. In a pass happy league that it's not too hard to get 4000 yards especially with a green to throw too . Dalton only has gotten 4000 yards twice , one of them being only 17 tds 4000 yards .

You do realize that Dalton was on pace for 4300 yards and almost 40 scores in 2015...right?

He got hurt. Missed 4 games.

That would've given Dalton 3 seasons with 4200 yards and 3 seasons with 30+ TDs.