Can ANY Coach Win Consistently Here?

[Pat5775]

(12-10-2017, 11:35 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Not going to happen, but the only coach I could think of that might win here consistently is freaking Zimmer.  His schemes are sound and he has a way of making players buy in.  In some alternate reality Mike Brown may have promoted Marvin to GM and made Zimmer HC before he got snatched up by Minnesota, and we then would have won our playoff game.

I think we would have won a lot more than that!


Maybe...

I'm starting to lose faith in Dalton fast

[Big Boss]

Honestly, I do.

Sure, the lack of a scouting department sucks. The lack of a practice facility sucks. But this team has been good at points throughout Marvin's tenure. Great, even. But whether it be Marvin's schemes, his inability to make in-game adjustments, his coaching demeanor, or all of the above, he hasn't been able to get the job done. He has taken this team as far as his talents and strengths could go. It's not enough.

Schemes, demeanor, discipline, and philosophy go a long way. That all comes down to coaching. Even if it happens by sheer accident, the right coach coming in could accomplish a great deal here. These players need someone who will hold them accountable, bring out the fire in them, and make them play like they give a shit.

[Circleville Guy]

(12-10-2017, 10:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think this is an honest question. We've had Lebeau who is a HOF Coach. Coslett was a good offensive mind. Marvin had some great defenses.

We know the Bengals do things differently. Small scouting department. Not really using free agency. Not being big spenders. Letting free agents leave if they want more than the Bengals think they're worth.

We see the 27+ years of no playoff win. Well the largely the same management team has been in place over that span.

From Shake n Blake in another thread. That management team has:
-7 winning seasons in 26 years (all under Marvin)
-Roughly a .418 winning % (actually dramatically improved under Merv, or it's probably in the 30s, Merv has a .543 %)
-In 2008, the Bengals set a record for the most games needed under one specific owner to attain 100 wins (288).
-In 2010, the team set a record for the fewest games needed to lose 200 (both considering and not considering playoffs under one specific owner (314).

I know that people think our roster is loaded with talent...but it isn't. I know fans think we draft great...but we don't.

I think we got lucky on 2 drafts which turned out great with Dalton, Green, Boling and Atkins, Dunlap.

This team is HORRIBLY managed. To expect a coach to come in and be able to scout just isn't likely to happen...because the good assistants come from teams that have great personnel departments.

While Marvin is no great coach, he's the latest in a line of people to be villianized...along with Palmer, Dillon, Spikes, Pickens...Those guys aren't the problem. Management is.

Not having a GM says everything that anyone ever needs to know about ownership, the team and how far anything ever can go. A GM that knows football would hire the best coach that he could, let him bring in his own coaches and draft with a plan. Free agency is there for a reason. A GM should have a budget and the owner should step aside. Mike won’t step aside.

[*Nately120*]

(12-10-2017, 11:26 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Ross could have been drafted with an eye towards losing Green.

Holy crap, that's terrifyingly possible.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-10-2017, 11:35 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Not going to happen, but the only coach I could think of that might win here consistently is freaking Zimmer.  His schemes are sound and he has a way of making players buy in.  In some alternate reality Mike Brown may have promoted Marvin to GM and made Zimmer HC before he got snatched up by Minnesota, and we then would have won our playoff game.

I don't know. His defenses melted down in the playoffs routinely.

You can't just look at scheme with a coach here though. They have to be able to scout. They have to be able to win with a roster with holes in it that won't be addressed. They have to come in and create a new culture.

[*Nately120*]

(12-10-2017, 11:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know. His defenses melted down in the playoffs routinely.

You can't just look at scheme with a coach here though. They have to be able to scout. They have to be able to win with a roster with holes in it that won't be addressed. They have to come in and create a new culture.

They have to come in here and create a new culture without actually addressing the main reason we've failed for 27 years.  Argh, that's like going to the gym and saying I want a personal trainer who is going to make me do a 180 an make me an adonis BUT I won't exercise and I won't stop eating 2 gallons of ice cream per day.

[J24]

(12-10-2017, 11:55 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know. His defenses melted down in the playoffs routinely.

You can't just look at scheme with a coach here though. They have to be able to scout. They have to be able to win with a roster with holes in it that won't be addressed. They have to come in and create a new culture.

Yeah they did but it's not like we gave him all the peaces to succeed here  either. Face it where still trying to find an all around LB to play next to Vontaz. Also we never had a true edge speed rusher while he was either like Lawson. I think the problem we have had in the playoffs is that our weaknesses on our roster have been majorly exploited .

[THE PISTONS]

(12-10-2017, 11:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: They have to come in here and create a new culture without actually addressing the main reason we've failed for 27 years.  Argh, that's like going to the gym and saying I want a personal trainer who is going to make me do a 180 an make me an adonis BUT I won't exercise and I won't stop eating 2 gallons of ice cream per day.

Yeah...or like building a 5 star hotel on top of a sand foundation.

Things look good until you start to look deep.

We're looking at a total rebuild from here. There is some talent left...but not enough to win consistently.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2017, 12:04 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Yeah they did but it's not like we gave him all the peaces to succeed here  either. Face it where still trying to find an all around LB to play next to Vontaz. Also we never had a true edge speed rusher while he was either like Lawson. I think the problem we have had in the playoffs is that our weaknesses on our roster have been majorly exploited .

Which is my point...we could hire a great HC and because they'll never get everything they need...they won't succeed here.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Won’t find out until we try.

[THE PISTONS]

Here's what we were Pre-Lewis. Oh...and the same Management Team is still in place. Marvin was the only change:

Starting in 1992 after the departure of Sam Wyche and ending in 2003 with the arrival of Lewis, here's how things went for the Bengals: 5-11, 3-13, 3-13, 7-9, 8-8, 7-9, 3-13, 4-12, 4-12, 6-10, 2-14. That's 11 years without a winning record, just one .500 record and seven years that brought fewer than five wins. One-hundred-seventy-six games with a cumulative winning percentage of .295. It goes without saying there wasn't a single playoff appearance to be had.

[THE PISTONS]

Yes...we won UNDER 30% of our games before Marvin got here.

[ShowMeUrTDs]

(12-10-2017, 10:58 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: The answer is no plain and simple no. People are in for a rude awaking when Marvin goes because I think he has been a very strong deodorant for this franchise. By the way we won 28% of the games under Mike before Marvin arrived.

Well if Marv is deodorant, can we get some perfume?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2017, 12:15 AM)ShowMeUrTDs Wrote: Well if Marv is deodorant, can we get some perfume?

We won under 30% of games BEFORE Marvin and over 50% after...largely with the same management team in place.

[ShowMeUrTDs]

(12-11-2017, 12:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We won under 30% of games BEFORE Marvin and over 50% after...largely with the same management team in place.

So yeah, just think if we get some perfume, that might jump up to 60-70%!

[Bambam]

Mike Brown is the problem. He has ruined this franchise. His old statement was we can't spend like the bigger city teams so he didn't. Then a salary cap came along with a minimum required to spend. Mike always spent at the minimum with the line of "I am saving the rest to sign our free agents." Except when I don't. He is the only owner in the league that is also the gm. He paid himself over a million dollars last year to be the gm...are you kidding?? If he was a gm for any other team he would have been fired 28 years ago. Instead, we have to sit here and watch him make bad move after bad move. Why is our scouting department so small?? Why do players bad mouth the organization after they leave? Why did Carson palmer decide to retire in order to not play another down for the Bengals? They are all the same answer...Mike Brown

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Urban Meyer could win here — but he’s in his dream job now and I can’t imagine him taking a pay cut.

Brian Billick could win here. Jon Gruden could win here. Mike Zimmer could have — would have — won here.

Any aggressive coach can win here and that’s Marvin Lewis’ issue: He’s too passive and too conservative.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2017, 12:44 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Urban Meyer could win here — but he’s in his dream job now and I can’t imagine him taking a pay cut.

Brian Billick could win here.  Jon Gruden could win here.  Mike Zimmer could have — would have — won here.

Any aggressive coach can win here and that’s Marvin Lewis’ issue:  He’s too passive and too conservative.

And aggressive coaches likely won't co-exist well with the Brown family...and put up with stuff here.

It takes a passive coach to go along with this.

[*Nately120*]

(12-11-2017, 12:44 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Urban Meyer could win here — but he’s in his dream job now and I can’t imagine him taking a pay cut.

Brian Billick could win here.  Jon Gruden could win here.  Mike Zimmer could have — would have — won here.

Any aggressive coach can win here and that’s Marvin Lewis’ issue:  He’s too passive and too conservative.

I can't imagine an aggressive and dynamic coach who wants to breathe life into a moribund franchise is going to:

1:  Want to work with Mike Brown
2:  Be hired BY Mike Brown

[Bambam]

(12-11-2017, 12:44 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Urban Meyer could win here — but he’s in his dream job now and I can’t imagine him taking a pay cut.

Brian Billick could win here. Jon Gruden could win here. Mike Zimmer could have — would have — won here.

Any aggressive coach can win here and that’s Marvin Lewis’ issue: He’s too passive and too conservative.

None of those coaches would work for Mike Brown.