Dalton vs. Bortles article

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-14-2018, 10:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Personally, I'm an Andy fan and I've defended him when I thought the criticism was over the top, but I agree that the constant Andy debates are almost always the same and get pretty boring. 

To be fair though, I'm probably guilty of the same thing when it comes to Marvin Lewis topics. I tend to repeat the same points and have the same arguments. 

Basically, when it comes to Mike, Marvin or Andy threads...there's really not much that hasn't already been said thousands of times before. 

Yep except,  after 2018 season add another season to Marvins,  Daltons, n Mikes failure.  Then do the same for 2019 n so on.

[Bengalholic]

(01-14-2018, 11:46 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I disagree.  I think a third of the teams in the league are pretty settled at QB, a third could probably use an upgrade but produces enough to have enough support, and a third that clearly need a QB.

I was talking purely about fan support. Being 'settled' in term of having a solid starter doesn't mean that a certain portion of the fan base isn't going to disagree or want someone else. It happens all the time. Unless you have an elite talent, the QB position is always going to be polarizing among the fan base to a certain degree. 

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find threads around NFL boards where guys like Wilson, Newton, Cousins and others are debated by their fans. It's just the nature of the beast.

[*bfine32*]

(01-14-2018, 10:47 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Personally, I'm an Andy fan and I've defended him when I thought the criticism was over the top, but I agree that the constant Andy debates are almost always the same and get pretty boring. 

To be fair though, I'm probably guilty of the same thing when it comes to Marvin Lewis topics. I tend to repeat the same points and have the same arguments. 

Basically, when it comes to Mike, Marvin or Andy threads...there's really not much that hasn't already been said thousands of times before. 

I think the biggest difference between the Marvin's to blame crowd and the Andy's to blame crowd is that the Andy's to blame crowd has never hoped we would lose so that he can be replaced. 

[Murdock2420]

Blake Bortles is now 1-0 vs the steelers in the playoffs. I'm somewhere between happy (those steeler tears are so fun to watch flow) and saddened that Bortles actually did something this team can't.

[Bengalholic]

(01-15-2018, 12:11 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the biggest difference between the Marvin's to blame crowd and the Andy's to blame crowd is that the Andy's to blame crowd has never hoped we would lose so that he can be replaced. 

There are good/legit arguments and bad/silly arguments in both crowds. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-15-2018, 12:28 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: There are good/legit arguments and bad/silly arguments in both crowds. 

Nothing really good/legit in hoping your team loses. That just falls in the bad/silly category. 

[Bengalholic]

(01-15-2018, 12:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing really good/legit in hoping your team loses. That just falls in the bad/silly category. 

As I said, there's legit and silly in both crowds.

[fredtoast]

(01-14-2018, 10:55 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I just wish we had a QB the fans could rally around and everyone knew was the franchise. 

That would be impossible.  there are certain members of this fan base who would complain no matter how good our QB was just because he is a Bengal and all Bengals suck.

There were people here who argued for years that Justin Smith was garbage and that Whitworth should haved moved to OG because he was not good enough to play LT. 

This is the same with all fan bases, but the Bengal group feels more empoowered because of the teams lack of success in the postseason.  They feel that "O-7" is the beginning and ending of any argument about how good any Bengal player or coach is.

 

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-09-2018, 10:25 PM)PacMan Fever Wrote: http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/come-this-andy-dalton-blake-bortles/5bhRIXNUu8UZt7Fy26o9LN/

I'd probably get out from under Dalton's contract and let Bortles and McCarron battle it out this summer
With the money saved by unloading Dalton we can probably buy ourselves two Zeitler quality O-lineman
What do you think Bengals nation?

We already have two Zeitler quality linemen that rode the bench all year in Westerman and Redmond that won't cost the team much at all.  As far as Bortles goes, we have him, too in Jeff Driscoll.  So, no...the problem isn't Dalton.  The problem has been coaching, accountability, and talent on the offensive and defensive lines, the LB corps, and the WR position.  

[CornerBlitz]

(01-15-2018, 11:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That would be impossible.  there are certain members of this fan base who would complain no matter how good our QB was just because he is a Bengal and all Bengals suck.

There were people here who argued for years that Justin Smith was garbage and that Whitworth should haved moved to OG because he was not good enough to play LT. 

This is the same with all fan bases, but the Bengal group feels more empoowered because of the teams lack of success in the postseason.  They feel that "O-7" is the beginning and ending of any argument about how good any Bengal player or coach is.

 

As usual, i disagree. I don't remember anyone thinking Whitworth was no good or should move to LG once he established himself.   In my opinion Bengal fans especially on this board have the opposite problem. They think players are good when in reality they are mediocre at best. Fans want to believe they're players are better than others, it's the nature of the beast. It's the reason why Andy Dalton is so hotly debated around here when the rest of the country understands what Dalton is pretty accurately.

[Hoofhearted]

(01-15-2018, 12:34 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing really good/legit in hoping your team loses. That just falls in the bad/silly category. 

There's not? So picking higher in the draft doesn't mean you have a higher chance at drafting a franchise/difference making player?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-15-2018, 11:35 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: As usual, i disagree. I don't remember anyone thinking Whitworth was no good or should move to LG once he established himself.   In my opinion Bengal fans especially on this board have the opposite problem. They think players are good when in reality they are mediocre at best. Fans want to believe they're players are better than others, it's the nature of the beast. It's the reason why Andy Dalton is so hotly debated around here when the rest of the country understands what Dalton is pretty accurately.

Oh yes, the mothership had dozens and dozens of people who were of this school of thought; PFF was in it's infancy in 2009 and, back when they had the awesome stats and a grading scheme that wasn't complete BS, I made post after post, saying that he was our best option and I still heard nothing in response, but, "he can't deal with speed rushers, so he should be moved to guard." "He's a good puller (which wasn't true) so he should be made a guard."

That's how I got my post count up during those times lol.

[fredtoast]

(01-15-2018, 11:35 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote:  It's the reason why Andy Dalton is so hotly debated around here when the rest of the country understands what Dalton is pretty accurately.

The "rest of the country" does not agree with you.  "Experts" disagree on how good Dalton is.  Remember in 2015 when they were talking about him as an MVP candidate?  

Guess you were probably hiding in a hole with Mully back then.

[fredtoast]

(01-15-2018, 12:23 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Oh yes, the mothership had dozens and dozens of people who were of this school of thought; PFF was in it's infancy in 2009 and, back when they had the awesome stats and a grading scheme that wasn't complete BS, I made post after post, saying that he was our best option and I still heard nothing in response, but, "he can't deal with speed rushers, so he should be moved to guard." "He's a good puller (which wasn't true) so he should be made a guard."

That's how I got my post count up during those times lol.

CB has a very selective memory.

[*Nately120*]

(01-15-2018, 11:26 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: We already have two Zeitler quality linemen that rode the bench all year in Westerman and Redmond that won't cost the team much at all.  As far as Bortles goes, we have him, too in Jeff Driscoll.  So, no...the problem isn't Dalton.  The problem has been coaching, accountability, and talent on the offensive and defensive lines, the LB corps, and the WR position.  

Not to sound like Bort Bortles' biggest fan, but the guy was a 3rd overall pick who is going to be playing in the AFC Championship game.  I'm not sure we have the same thing sitting on our bench in a 207th overall pick. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-15-2018, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The "rest of the country" does not agree with you.  "Experts" disagree on how good Dalton is.  Remember in 2015 when they were talking about him as an MVP candidate?  

Guess you were probably hiding in a hole with Mully back then.

Don't you mean was one year out of a 7 year career? I think National pundits are pretty much in accord with how good Andy Dalton is and that's middle of the road. It is why we get the endless "National media disrespecting Andy" threads when they rank him as an average QB, 

[fredtoast]

Here is the problem with the perception of Dalton. When he is bad he is very bad, and inconsistency is a big problem. he has also been bad more often in playoffs and prime time games.

So here is a Dalton stat that I think everyone will agree illustrates the problem with Andy

Since Andy came into the league only 5 other QBs have more games with a passer rating of 125+ (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Ryan and P Manning) than Dalton's 14. Dalton actually has a very high ceiling and plays at an elite level more often than most other QBs in the league.

BUT....Only five other QBs have more games with a passer rating under 60 than Dalton. So Dalton also plays at a very crappy level more often than most QBs in the league.

It is not that he does not have the skills. The problem is his maddening inconsistency.

[*Nately120*]

(01-15-2018, 12:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Don't you mean was one year out of a 7 year career? I think National pundits are pretty much in accord with how good Andy Dalton is and that's middle of the road. It is why we get the endless "National media disrespecting Andy" threads when they rank him as an average QB, 

I hear ya.  It seems like every year there is one or two average or pretty good but not elite QBs who have that one elite year.  2015 was an interesting year because Dalton and Palmer were both playing elite football and yet we had the guys for a combined 14 years and while we've had some frustrating injuries during promising stretches, we've won nothing.

That's what those one year pockets of greatness get you.  Every year there is one new face in the final 4 teams and/or losing the Super Bowl that is there because he had an elite year that he probably can't repeat.

This year it could be Case Keenum (we shall see what happens), before it was Matt Ryan, before that Dalton/Palmer/Newton, before that Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick, and so on and so forth.  Those are mostly good QBs over the long-term career, but they had that one year window where they came up short against teams that tend to get it done on a regular basis.  Toss the magical 2006 Bears' season with Rex Grossman trying to not botch what the defense and Hester were doing coming up short against Manning and the Colts in there, as well.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-15-2018, 12:37 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Not to sound like Bort Bortles' biggest fan, but the guy was a 3rd overall pick who is going to be playing in the AFC Championship game.  I'm not sure we have the same thing sitting on our bench in a 207th overall pick. 

As we so often debate, what does he have around him?  Great RB, WR, TE, and offensive line and perhaps the best defense in the NFL?  And, this is, what, his third or fourth year?  They weren't that enamored with him as there was a moment early this year I thought that they were going to go with Chad Henne.  Or at least they gave Henne the start in a preseason game.

I am just saying, if you surround an athletic guy like Driscoll with that kind of talent and give him four years?  Well, Driscoll sure seemed to have a ton of success in college and we saw what he did with a very average talented Bengal squad in the preseason due to his athleticism.

I am not a Bortles hater (Chris Simms) but I just think he has probably the best situation of any QB in the NFL right now as far as the team around him.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-15-2018, 12:11 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the biggest difference between the Marvin's to blame crowd and the Andy's to blame crowd is that the Andy's to blame crowd has never hoped we would lose so that he can be replaced. 

Tell that to the McCarron crowd.