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In '05, the Steelers take out Palmer on the opening play of the playoff game, we only get 3, and then everyone knows what happened at halftime and everything just fell apart.
When they beat the Cardinals in the Super Bowl, the Cardinals were about to go up 14-10 at the end of the first half, which they'd also get the ball back at the start of the second half, but Warner is stupid and throws a slant-route to the center of the field inside the 3 (can you be stupider?), it gets intercepted and returned for a touchdown.
Steelers go up 17-7 instead of down 10-14.
Even so, they still need to score a touchdown in the final minute to win by 4.
So, my question is, are the Steelers really a great franchise or just lucky?
Harrison was a blitzer on that play. Earlier in the playoff the Chargers ran the same play from the same formations and got an easy touchdown. Cardinals line up in the same formation and the Steelers audibled to the exact same blitz. The Cardinals and Warner played it fine, Harrison was just that much better.
(02-10-2018, 10:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: In '05, the Steelers take out Palmer on the opening play of the playoff game, we only get 3, and then everyone knows what happened at halftime and everything just fell apart.
Palmer got injured...Bengals maintain lead through halftime. Marvin Lewis does Marvin Lewis things....the Steelers win.
No one knows if the game wouldn't still have ended in a Bengals loss if Palmer plays the whole game, but given the rest of the Bengals playoff appearances after that it seems likely.
(02-10-2018, 10:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: When they beat the Cardinals in the Super Bowl, the Cardinals were about to go up 14-10 at the end of the first half, which they'd also get the ball back at the start of the second half, but Warner is stupid and throws a slant-route to the center of the field inside the 3 (can you be stupider?), it gets intercepted and returned for a touchdown.
Steelers go up 17-7 instead of down 10-14.
Even so, they still need to score a touchdown in the final minute to win by 4.
Warner had that pass for a TD...except Harrison decided on his own to NOT blitz. Whether it was because he diagnosed something or figured they would throw quickly and rushing wouldn't help so he clogged a lane he still made an athletic play to a) be in the right spot, b) catch the ball and c) return it 100 yards.
(02-10-2018, 10:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So, my question is, are the Steelers really a great franchise or just lucky?
As I said during the season about the Patriots and the calls that seems to go their way and bounces they seem to get: The difference between winning and losing int he NFL is not that great. Get one or two calls and a good bounce or two and you win more than you lose. Win more than you lose and you seem to get more good calls/bounces to the fans.
If Jackie Smith catches that TD in SBXIII does that mean the Cowboys win?
If Jack Lambert doesn't step back into coverage and get a late game INT in SBXIV to the Rams come back to win?
Of if the two deep passes to Stallworth fall incomplete (like they did all week in practice) to the Steelers still mount their comeback in SBXIV?
If Neil O'Donnell doesn't throw two of the worst INTs of his career to the Steelers win SB XXX?
A good bounce, a lucky play, etc. Thin line.
The Patriots won on late game field goals, Seattle not running the ball, Atlanta not making just one more play. Were they lucky?
I asked just yesterday if the Pats had lost a couple of the games they were trailing in and they only won 1 or 2 super bowls versus five...are they still a dynasty for getting there eight times? Or are they the 90's Atlanta Braves that dominated their division and got to multiple world series' but only won once?
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(02-11-2018, 11:26 AM)6andcounting Wrote: Harrison was a blitzer on that play. Earlier in the playoff the Chargers ran the same play from the same formations and got an easy touchdown. Cardinals line up in the same formation and the Steelers audibled to the exact same blitz. The Cardinals and Warner played it fine, Harrison was just that much better.
How does that in any way change the fact that it was a stupid throw by Warner?
They were lucky that Warner looked directly at his receiver the entire time and threw it to between the hashes when the ball started on the 3, both of which are HUGE no-nos.
(02-11-2018, 12:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Palmer got injured...Bengals maintain lead through halftime. Marvin Lewis does Marvin Lewis things....the Steelers win.
No one knows if the game wouldn't still have ended in a Bengals loss if Palmer plays the whole game, but given the rest of the Bengals playoff appearances after that it seems likely.
No one knows, but it seems likely that the Bengals win.
You have to figure that we would have scored there instead of kicking a field goal and gone up 7-0, and then just continued to control the game (the Steelers didn't score in the first quarter and we added a TD), and then you have to know that the halftime blow-up doesn't happen with Chad (if it did even happen) and then we keep riding the momentum and Carson keeps being Carson.
What do you mean by Marvin does Marvin things? Even if you have some sort of answer, that's still the Steelers getting lucky.
(02-11-2018, 12:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Warner had that pass for a TD...except Harrison decided on his own to NOT blitz. Whether it was because he diagnosed something or figured they would throw quickly and rushing wouldn't help so he clogged a lane he still made an athletic play to a) be in the right spot, b) catch the ball and c) return it 100 yards.
Like I said, only a stupid quarterback throws a slant inside the hashes from the 3 yard-line, especially one that close to the line, and it hit Harrison in the stomach, so not like he made a difficult catch (it would have been next-to-impossible to drop that), and then just had to run a straight line for 100 yards.... not like he made some Barry Sanders moves to make guys miss.
(02-11-2018, 12:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: As I said during the season about the Patriots and the calls that seems to go their way and bounces they seem to get: The difference between winning and losing int he NFL is not that great. Get one or two calls and a good bounce or two and you win more than you lose. Win more than you lose and you seem to get more good calls/bounces to the fans.
If Jackie Smith catches that TD in SBXIII does that mean the Cowboys win?
If Jack Lambert doesn't step back into coverage and get a late game INT in SBXIV to the Rams come back to win?
Of if the two deep passes to Stallworth fall incomplete (like they did all week in practice) to the Steelers still mount their comeback in SBXIV?
If Neil O'Donnell doesn't throw two of the worst INTs of his career to the Steelers win SB XXX?
A good bounce, a lucky play, etc. Thin line.
The Patriots won on late game field goals, Seattle not running the ball, Atlanta not making just one more play. Were they lucky?
I asked just yesterday if the Pats had lost a couple of the games they were trailing in and they only won 1 or 2 super bowls versus five...are they still a dynasty for getting there eight times? Or are they the 90's Atlanta Braves that dominated their division and got to multiple world series' but only won once?
90's Bills would be a better example.
Aside from the tuck rule, the Pats just played solid games and outplayed the other teams to victory, even if they had to win on last-second field goals, whereas the Steelers most likely don't win those games if not for those two plays.
(02-11-2018, 03:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: How does that in any way change the fact that it was a stupid throw by Warner?
They were lucky that Warner looked directly at his receiver the entire time and threw it to between the hashes when the ball started on the 3, both of which are HUGE no-nos.
No one knows, but it seems likely that the Bengals win.
Harrison read Warner like a book. Conclusion: The book is stupid. Brad logic.
(02-11-2018, 03:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: How does that in any way change the fact that it was a stupid throw by Warner?
They were lucky that Warner looked directly at his receiver the entire time and threw it to between the hashes when the ball started on the 3, both of which are HUGE no-nos.
That's not luck on the part of the Steelers. If you want to look at the play your way it was a bad play...not bad luck. In fact it was a GOOD play, not luck, by Harrison. If he doesn't make that play it IS a TD. "stupid throw" or not.
(02-11-2018, 03:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: No one knows, but it seems likely that the Bengals win.
You have to figure that we would have scored there instead of kicking a field goal and gone up 7-0, and then just continued to control the game (the Steelers didn't score in the first quarter and we added a TD), and then you have to know that the halftime blow-up doesn't happen with Chad (if it did even happen) and then we keep riding the momentum and Carson keeps being Carson.
Henry got hurt making the catch too, didn't he?
Besides that your opinion about what happened during and after halftime is based on something you don't even know really happened. Point is the Bengals had the lead and blew it away.
(02-11-2018, 03:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What do you mean by Marvin does Marvin things? Even if you have some sort of answer, that's still the Steelers getting lucky.
Like not adjusting to having to go with he back up qb and altering the game plan. Instead he played to "not lose" and he lost. ) and the playoffs during his tenure says more to me about how that game might have ended even with Palmer than anything else.
(02-11-2018, 03:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Like I said, only a stupid quarterback throws a slant inside the hashes from the 3 yard-line, especially one that close to the line, and it hit Harrison in the stomach, so not like he made a difficult catch (it would have been next-to-impossible to drop that), and then just had to run a straight line for 100 yards.... not like he made some Barry Sanders moves to make guys miss.
Yeah, he didn't hurdle anyone, shake off tackles, nothing. Just ran in a straight line.
I apologize for forgetting that I was trying to have a sensible discussion in smack talk.
Aside from the tuck rule, the Pats just played solid games and outplayed the other teams to victory, even if they had to win on last-second field goals, whereas the Steelers most likely don't win those games if not for those two plays.
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Actually short of the last two Super Bowls the Patriots didn't "outplay" their opponents much at all. Even in this last loss Brady set all kinds of records but they only led once and he couldn't bring them back so I'd say the Eagles outplayed the Patriots almost the entire game.
You're willing to overlook the overall play of the Steelers against the Bengals (and in the next three games they had to win to be Super Bowl champions) AND the game winning drive by them against Arizona...including an amazing throw and catch for the game winning TD and a strip fumble to end the game. BUT you can't acknowledge that NE squeaked by in three wins and "got lucky" due to "stupid" plays by their opponents in their wins.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's not luck on the part of the Steelers. If you want to look at the play your way it was a bad play...not bad luck. In fact it was a GOOD play, not luck, by Harrison. If he doesn't make that play it IS a TD. "stupid throw" or not.
The Cardinals had video proof the Steelers audible would leave the slant route wide open on that play. They were right.
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(02-11-2018, 05:47 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Harrison read Warner like a book. Conclusion: The book is stupid. Brad logic.
THERE WAS NOTHING TO READ! Warner stood took the snap and stared at the receiver!
Steelers fan logic: just joking, they can't even believe that the shit they post has any logic.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's not luck on the part of the Steelers. If you want to look at the play your way it was a bad play...not bad luck. In fact it was a GOOD play, not luck, by Harrison. If he doesn't make that play it IS a TD. "stupid throw" or not.
It was an easy play by Harrison! Any player could have made that play. Explain how it was a good play.
Warner looked directly where he was throwing it from the time the ball was snapped. Not a good play to know that he was going to throw it there and for Harrison to barely have to move too be in position.
Ball hit him in the stomach. Not hard to catch it.
He ran straight down the field with no resistance and the one guy dove at his legs and even before he should have dove, so not hard to make him miss.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: Henry got hurt making the catch too, didn't he?
Besides that your opinion about what happened during and after halftime is based on something you don't even know really happened. Point is the Bengals had the lead and blew it away.
So you're assuming that tempers are flaring and everyone is still in their right minds and that halftime happens exactly the same?
Typical argument of a Steelers fan to throw out something that's impossible and makes no sense because it somehow means that the Steelers would have won regardless.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: Like not adjusting to having to go with he back up qb and altering the game plan. Instead he played to "not lose" and he lost. ) and the playoffs during his tenure says more to me about how that game might have ended even with Palmer than anything else.
Ok, so, again, that's the Steelers getting lucky.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: That's not luck on the part of the Steelers. If you want to look at the play your way it was a bad play...not bad luck. In fact it was a GOOD play, not luck, by Harrison. If he doesn't make that play it IS a TD. "stupid throw" or not.
Henry got hurt making the catch too, didn't he?
Besides that your opinion about what happened during and after halftime is based on something you don't even know really happened. Point is the Bengals had the lead and blew it away.
Like not adjusting to having to go with he back up qb and altering the game plan. Instead he played to "not lose" and he lost. ) and the playoffs during his tenure says more to me about how that game might have ended even with Palmer than anything else.
Yeah, he didn't hurdle anyone, shake off tackles, nothing. Just ran in a straight line.
HURDLE ANYONE?!
He had to take a step a foot higher than he normally would have, and the guy dove too soon!
SHAKE OFF TACKLES?!
Actually, he didn't really shake off any tackles, but the lineman just dove at his feet and barely clipped him and then Fitzgerald tackled him into the endzone, so he actually did no such thing.
(02-11-2018, 05:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: I apologize for forgetting that I was trying to have a sensible discussion in smack talk.
Steelers fans are the most delusional people on Earth, as I pointed out above, so I apologize for being stupid enough to try to have a logical discussion.
(02-11-2018, 05:55 PM)StrictlyBiz Wrote:
Say what?
He just ran straight down the field for the touchdown. It's not like he did anything special besides not trip.
(02-10-2018, 10:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: In '05, the Steelers take out Palmer on the opening play of the playoff game, we only get 3, and then everyone knows what happened at halftime and everything just fell apart.
When they beat the Cardinals in the Super Bowl, the Cardinals were about to go up 14-10 at the end of the first half, which they'd also get the ball back at the start of the second half, but Warner is stupid and throws a slant-route to the center of the field inside the 3 (can you be stupider?), it gets intercepted and returned for a touchdown.
Steelers go up 17-7 instead of down 10-14.
Even so, they still need to score a touchdown in the final minute to win by 4.
So, my question is, are the Steelers really a great franchise or just lucky?
In the case of the Cardinals game, you are making the assumption that if Harrison hadn’t scored, the rest of the scoring in that game would have proceeded identically to the actual outcome. But there’s no way of knowing that. If the halftime score was different then the 17-7 that actually happened, that would’ve set into motion a whole new set of events that would have been independent from the second half we actually got. There’s no way of knowing what kind of turnovers, lucky breaks, or hot streaks might have happened from that point, because it would have been a completely different outcome. So, to say that a different outcome of that play would have “most likely“ resulted in a different final outcome is kind of dicey, because you’re talking about a complete unknown.
As for the Cincy game, I do not deny that Palmer not getting hurt would have greatly increased the Bengals’ chances, but by no means was it a guarantee of a win. The two teams split that year, each winning in the other’s stadium. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Steelers still had a good chance of winning even if Palmer was healthy.
As to the question of luck, I believe that in this parity-driven age it takes a combination of luck and being good to win a championship. The 1980s saw an era of dominant championship teams that basically blew everybody out in the playoffs. But when is the last time we saw that? These days, almost every Super Bowl winner plays at least one tight game in the playoffs. Those are the types of games that can hinge on just one or two plays.
The point is this: to suggest that a championship team is either lucky or good is a false dichotomy. Most often, they are both. Here’s the difference: when a good team gets a lucky break, it is more likely to help them win, because good teams tend to put themselves in situations where they can take advantage of luck. Bad teams don’t usually get any fewer lucky breaks than good ones, but they are usually in less of a position to take advantage of them, because they’re bad.
(02-11-2018, 05:41 PM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: Im just stunned that Brad didn't include one of the lucky things as Roethlisberger not getting charged with rape.
He's turning over a new leaf. New year, New Brad?
He can stay quiet as Steeler's fans keep bringing it up now
I am so ready for 2024 season. I love pro football and hoping for a great Bengals year. Regardless, always remember it is a game and entertainment.
Every champion has had breaks along the way. But, back to current decade Steeler's teams has proven they are just not good enough, give fans hope and then show they re not for real
I am so ready for 2024 season. I love pro football and hoping for a great Bengals year. Regardless, always remember it is a game and entertainment.
The reason there is the mantra of "any given Sunday" is because a lot of it is luck. The perfect football game is the unstoppable force versus the immovable object. The difference all comes down to the luck of the draw. The QB notices a hole in the D and calls an audible to change routes. A LB sees a gap to shoot through and makes a sack. A safety stumbles for a brief second leaving a WR open.
A lot of it comes down to play calling and knowing the opponent, and in that regard it is a lot like a chess match. But luck plays a huge element in each and every game and each and every play. It's just a matter of seeing the opportunity and taking advantage of it. Some teams are better at it than others.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(02-11-2018, 08:03 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: In the case of the Cardinals game, you are making the assumption that if Harrison hadn’t scored, the rest of the scoring in that game would have proceeded identically to the actual outcome. But there’s no way of knowing that. If the halftime score was different then the 17-7 that actually happened, that would’ve set into motion a whole new set of events that would have been independent from the second half we actually got. There’s no way of knowing what kind of turnovers, lucky breaks, or hot streaks might have happened from that point, because it would have been a completely different outcome. So, to say that a different outcome of that play would have “most likely“ resulted in a different final outcome is kind of dicey, because you’re talking about a complete unknown.
You also have to think about the momentum and the way the play calling would have changed.
The Steelers got outplayed that game and that was a 14 point swing, which they still ended up only winning by 4.
Except for that one play, the Steelers were beaten in that game and had no business winning.
You're right in that it wouldn't have gone the same way, but the Cardinals were the better team that day except for that one play.
It goes back to being lucky, which was my point all-along.
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