ML Article

[Shake n Blake]

(03-27-2018, 03:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I find it funny how some people here will go off on huge rants about the front office until they get to a Marvin Lewis thread then it is all "No blame on the front office".

I blame the front office for disasters like 2017. We had an obvious need on the o-line, did nothing, and predictably it was a huge reason we had a losing season.

I blame Marvin Lewis when we go around 11-5, lose to the Steelers, and get embarrassed prime-time and playoff games.

There's no twisting here. It's pretty simple.

[fredtoast]

(03-27-2018, 03:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I blame Marvin Lewis when we go around 11-5, lose to the Steelers, and get embarrassed prime-time and playoff games.

It could be argued that 11-5 is over achieving with with this front office.

95% of our talent is drafted and developed by our coaches.  All of the trades and free agent signings were for second class bargains.  Luckily our coaches were able to get special production from some of them (Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman)

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-27-2018, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It could be argued that 11-5 is over achieving with with this front office.

95% of our talent is drafted and developed by our coaches.  All of the trades and free agent signings were for second class bargains.  Luckily our coaches were able to get special production from some of them (Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman)

Have to point out that all 3 of those guys were 1st round picks...

[sandwedge]

(03-27-2018, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It could be argued that 11-5 is over achieving with with this front office.

95% of our talent is drafted and developed by our coaches.  All of the trades and free agent signings were for second class bargains.  Luckily our coaches were able to get special production from some of them (Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman)

Hold on a second Fred, let me see if I am picking up what you are laying down here. So a team goes 11-5 is over achieving despite the FO not bringing good players, yet that same 11-5 team can't win a playoff, yet it's not the coaching staff's fault but still the FO's fault... 

[J24]

I like as a coach and as a person but the guy should have been gone after 15 and moved to the front office as an advisor. I think it's hard for Mike to make a move though because 1.) He is a dumbass 2.) He is comfortable and doesn't want to switch things up. 3.) He is cheap. The only reason why Marvin stays is because he feels bad fo the players and coaches here and he feels like it is his fault that they are here because he signed them.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-27-2018, 04:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Hold on a second Fred, let me see if I am picking up what you are laying down here. So a team goes 11-5 is over achieving despite the FO not bringing good players, yet that same 11-5 team can't win a playoff, yet it's not the coaching staff's fault but still the FO's fault... 

Definately on the FO for not using FA to improve the team but it definately is on the coaches not being able to get a Playoff
win with an 11-5 team. The players are there at that point and they are an above average team. There is no excuse for the
coaches never being prepared in these giant games to get their players properly prepared and motivated for Playoff games.

It is on both, not one or the other.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-27-2018, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It could be argued that 11-5 is over achieving with with this front office.

95% of our talent is drafted and developed by our coaches.  All of the trades and free agent signings were for second class bargains.  Luckily our coaches were able to get special production from some of them (Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman)

You left out scouted by Tobin, who some claim is our de facto GM. 

Quote:The team offered a hint this week that Tobin's role is growing beyond player personnel executive after he reportedly turned down opportunities in January to interview for the general manager openings of the Lions and Titans.
...
"I have some role. So do our coaches," Mike Brown explained, via Geoff Hobson of the team's official website. "Duke has become the focal point for everyone. He keeps it on track. I would say today the responsibility is largely his. He puts it all together."

As for lacking talent and the team overachieving, from the same article:

Quote:Ravens coach John Harbaugh has hailed Cincinnati as the most talented outfit in the league. Hall of Fame executive Bill Polian recently praised the Bengals' 2015 roster as the NFL's best "from top to bottom."

Former Eagles and Browns president Joe Banner stated Monday that Tobin "has not received the credit he deserves" for directing the NFL's fourth-best record over the past half-decade.

Mike is a hindrance to Marv in that he's slow to react (understatement) and usually frugal in FA. This makes it hard to win consistently. That said, when we've had the talent to go 11-5, you can't use talent as excuse for losing in the same situations over and over again. If we're beating teams like Seattle, New England and Green Bay in regular season 1PM games, we shouldn't be getting owned by 9-7 Chargers and Jets teams in the playoffs...at PBS no less.

Or having a 7-21 (or whatever it is now) record against the Steelers. Or whatever the record is in prime time. 

Boy, Tobin wasn't lying about that loyalty though:

Quote:"I'm a loyal guy. Loyalty matters. Ownership here is loyal to its employees and employees ought to mimic that loyalty,"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000637749/article/duke-tobins-star-rising-in-bengals-front-office

[fredtoast]

(03-27-2018, 03:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Have to point out that all 3 of those guys were 1st round picks...

Terrence Newman 2 yr $5 million.

Adam Jones league minimum $630K

Reggie Nelson acquired in trade for David Jones.

[Luvnit2]

(03-27-2018, 03:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I blame the front office for disasters like 2017. We had an obvious need on the o-line, did nothing, and predictably it was a huge reason we had a losing season.

I blame Marvin Lewis when we go around 11-5, lose to the Steelers, and get embarrassed prime-time and playoff games.

There's no twisting here. It's pretty simple.

It is easy to blame, pick someone or something and blast away. The playoff losses each has an identity of its own. Arguably the 2 at Texas were to a better team, that leaves 5. The loss at home to the Jets was on the players and the coaches in my opinion. I say players too as it appears we have had players disappear in the playoffs, out so called studs were duds in the playoffs. The Indy loss at Indy we were in decimated by injury.

The one loss I think was a win we should have had was the chargers at home, coaches and players blew it. The loss to the Steelers was clearly on Hill and the stupidity during the game by Peko and Jones. I give Burfict a pass as the late flag was a bang bang play ad he played his arse off unlike others.

So some will blame the coaches (all and not just ML), some the FO, some the players. I blame them all and I blame Tobin for 2017 not getting a deal done for Whittworth when the next ups were questionable at best. Obviously they were not ready, my guess why PA finally was fired.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-27-2018, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It could be argued that 11-5 is over achieving with with this front office.

95% of our talent is drafted and developed by our coaches.  All of the trades and free agent signings were for second class bargains.  Luckily our coaches were able to get special production from some of them (Adam Jones, Reggie Nelson, Terrance Newman)

Why is it then Fred that our coaches can't get this "special production" when it counts ? Is that the fault of the front office ?

Are the two wins against the Steelers at PBS Mike Browns fault with all this special production ? Is 0-7 in the playoffs because the front office messed up ?

Sorry Fred, Marvin is far from faultless !

[Benton]

(03-27-2018, 03:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but I just can not imagine a guy being motivated enough to become an NFL head coach and then not give a shit about his reputation.

His check clear? 

Quote:There are a few things to criticize Marvin for, but I don't see lack of effort being one.  You think you get upset because your favorite team has a losing record, just imagine how you would feel if you were a huge public persona and your entire identity was defined by that teams record.  It has to kill Marvin that he can't win these big games.  The fact that he doesn't pitch a fit like a child does not mean he does not care.


Marvin was not handed a coaching job because of his family name or because he was a famous NFL player.  He had to work his ass off to get where he is.  And I believe he has too much pride in his reputation to just half ass do his job.

To the bold, is it? Does it?

My experience with coaches (college, not pro) is they're pretty damn insulated. They don't read a lot of the media stuff, they don't hear a lot of the criticism. And most coaches I know don't define success the same way many fans do: with championships. To a large chunk of fans, Marvin is a giant failure. 16 years, no (in their measurement) success. To him? According to his statements and interviews, it's something the team is working on. We might define his identity by wins — especially the big games — but Marvin hasn't given any indication that he defines it the same. I've never heard an interview where he said "Yeah, I'm pretty bummed about being historically bad. Man, if I was Mike, I'd have canned my butt years ago."

And as far as being handed a job, he did. Mike Brown and the team saw a Super Bowl team in Baltimore that was a juggernaut. They saw a chance to grab a piece of that, and thanks to a handful of HoF players — that were still playing at that level long after their coordinator left for the Bengals — Marvin Lewis became a head coach.

But I will say I don't think Marvin half asses his job. I think he gives it 100%. That in no way means he's good at it, or that he has any incentive to change being bad. In other words, no motivation. He can get by being 8-8, third in the North or 9-6 and a first round flop every year. Or, sub .500. It doesn't matter, he knows there's still a desk for him.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-27-2018, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Terrence Newman 2 yr $5 million.

Adam Jones league minimum $630K

Reggie Nelson acquired in trade for David Jones.

They still were former 1st round picks, not like they didn't have talent is what i am getting at.

But yeah, Zimmer did a good job with those guys.

[BengalsRocker]

(03-27-2018, 05:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is easy to blame, pick someone or something and blast away. The playoff losses each has an identity of its own. Arguably the 2 at Texas were to a better team, that leaves 5. The loss at home to the Jets was on the players and the coaches in my opinion. I say players too as it appears we have had players disappear in the playoffs, out so called studs were duds in the playoffs. The Indy loss at Indy we were in decimated by injury.

The one loss I think was a win we should have had was the chargers at home, coaches and players blew it. The loss to the Steelers was clearly on Hill and the stupidity during the game by Peko and Jones. I give Burfict a pass as the late flag was a bang bang play ad he played his arse off unlike others.

So some will blame the coaches (all and not just ML), some the FO, some the players. I blame them all and I blame Tobin for 2017 not getting a deal done for Whittworth when the next ups were questionable at best. Obviously they were not ready, my guess why PA finally was fired.

I agree with the majority of this.

However I must also add that in the Steelers loss other players were acting like fools throughout the game.

Jeremy Hill was starting crap and acting stupid prior to the fumble.

Then players like Peko who were normally perceived leaders were acting poorly.

Marvin could and should have righted that ship.

He did not.  It was an accumulation of things that led to those final actions of the game.

I hang the Steelers loss on Marv as much as the Chargers one.

The fact is the players as well as Marvin did not handle that game like pros.

They looked exactly like what an NFL team who couldn't win a playoff game in almost two decades would.

Undisciplined.  Unclassy.  Embarrassing.

Yet here we are.  Same guy coaching them.  So yeah not buying "change" until I truly see it.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-27-2018, 07:30 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I agree with the majority of this.

However I must also add that in the Steelers loss other players were acting like fools throughout the game.

Jeremy Hill was starting crap and acting stupid prior to the fumble.

Then players like Peko who were normally perceived leaders were acting poorly.

Marvin could and should have righted that ship.

He did not.  It was an accumulation of things that led to those final actions of the game.

I hang the Steelers loss on Marv as much as the Chargers one.

The fact is the players as well as Marvin did not handle that game like pros.

They looked exactly like what an NFL team who couldn't win a playoff game in almost two decades would.

Undisciplined.  Unclassy.  Embarrassing.

Yet here we are.  Same guy coaching them.  So yeah not buying "change" until I truly see it.

Agree with all of this. Just hoping with the additions of Pollack, Lazor, Austin, Van Pelt, Bicknell that these guys can coach up
their players and have them ready unlike the coaches who were here before. Pollack for one seems like a hard ass. Austin is
known for discipline. I also blame the Playoff losses that should/could of been wins on Merv.

Our new coaches will have to carry his lame ass to a Playoff win cause he sure is not the leader to get the players ready.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-27-2018, 05:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote:  I blame Tobin for 2017 not getting a deal done for Whittworth when the next ups were questionable at best. 

C'mon man!  There's only one "T" in Whitworth.  Any "real" fan would have known that...  

[Luvnit2]

(03-27-2018, 08:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: C'mon man!  There's only one "T" in Whitworth.  Any "real" fan would have known that...  

[BengalsRocker]

(03-27-2018, 07:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Agree with all of this. Just hoping with the additions of Pollack, Lazor, Austin, Van Pelt, Bicknell that these guys can coach up
their players and have them ready unlike the coaches who were here before. Pollack for one seems like a hard ass. Austin is
known for discipline. I also blame the Playoff losses that should/could of been wins on Merv.

Our new coaches will have to carry his lame ass to a Playoff win cause he sure is not the leader to get the players ready.

The funny thing is that his players will "play up" for games that do not matter and play flat for playoff ones.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-27-2018, 08:25 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: The funny thing is that his players will "play up" for games that do not matter and play flat for playoff ones.

It is very peculiar, happened twice again last year at the end of the season against two teams fighting for the Playoffs.

Just shows me we have good players that can beat good teams, need better coaching. I think for the most part we improved
this Offseason but the HC like you said is still here. I can only hope that these new coaches do well enough to carry him and
the best one is our new HC in a couple years.

[jj22]

Another one. I have to admit, as negative as I can be, I'm exited about these new coaches. I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment. But for now, I believe they'll bring a spark....

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Lewis-transforming-Xs-and-Os-We-have-to-We-werent-good-enough-/e3960b25-33d6-4c0d-a8a3-9ba44f496005

[PDub80]

Are people still bitching about the FO? The same FO that had experts and former players raving across every medium that the Bengals had one of if not THE most talented rosters in the entire league for several years running?

The ol' "blame Mike Brown" doesn't hold water and hasn't since 2011 at least. Marvin has gotten LESS with MORE. That's on him. He had a great mix of youth and talent on the field. Unfortunately for the players, Marvin's talent and abilities failed to match their level. Their ceiling is much much higher than Marvin's.

The only thing I blame Mike Brown for is forming deep, personal relationships with his coaches to the point he can't let them go because it would be like firing a family member. I then blame the NFL for fostering an environment where Mike doesn't have to make tough decisions every year to succeed on the field due to revenue sharring.