The QB position

[*bfine32*]

(05-06-2018, 12:49 AM)jorev5 Wrote: #10 in soccer is sometimes given to attacking midfielder, someone who distributes the ball, but also can score themselves and also sometimes the number ten is the best player/leader of the team.  Is this why?

Love the soccer knowledge but that's not why.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-05-2018, 09:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I can agree with all but 4. Andy is fine starting QB. Mediocre means "of moderate quality; not very good". I hope he lights it up this yer and takes us to the Super Bowl; I do believe he has the ability. 

Does the word average fit better? Regardless of what adjective you want to use to describe him i think most reasonable NFL observers understand what Dalton is. He's an average starting QB.

With that said he has been a highly inferior QB in the playoffs.  Nobody can deny any of this....the only difference is that some want to put the ENTIRE blame on Marvin Lewis which I disagree with. Blame is to go around....Marvin and Dalton share it.  We've been through this discussion countless times though and the Dalton fans can't come to grips with this.

[Luvnit2]

(05-06-2018, 05:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Does the word average fit better? Regardless of what adjective you want to use to describe him i think most reasonable NFL observers understand what Dalton is. He's an average starting QB.

With that said he has been a highly inferior QB in the playoffs.  Nobody can deny any of this....the only difference is that some want to put the ENTIRE blame on Marvin Lewis which I disagree with. Blame is to go around....Marvin and Dalton share it.  We've been through this discussion countless times though and the Dalton fans can't come to grips with this.

What is your criteria for QB?

Career stats 

Wins - Above average
Win/Loss percent - above average
QBR - above average
TD to Int. ratio well above average
Fumble Ratio - Top 3 in league among starters so outstanding

Help us understand how he is average using facts (stats)

I do agree he has not performed well in playoffs so well below average in playoffs

[Neon Icon]

Put a good to great running game in front of AD and it will do wonders. The Bengals don't have the personnel at WR to be a heavy pass oriented team.

When was the last time we had a good running average as a team.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-06-2018, 06:00 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: What is your criteria for QB?

Career stats 

Wins - Above average
Win/Loss percent - above average
QBR - above average
TD to Int. ratio well above average
Fumble Ratio - Top 3 in league among starters so outstanding

Help us understand how he is average using facts (stats)

I do agree he has not performed well in playoffs so well below average in playoffs

I really don't care to partake in a detailed argument breaking down Dalton. We've been through this countless times.

By the way, if you do want to use facts, just check out his QBR rating the last couple years relative to the rest of the league and you will come to the conclusion that he's been very average, perhaps even below average. 

You could also see QB rankings that experts provide and he's always in that 14-20 range. He's an average QB according to nearly everyone outside of Cincinnati.

[Luvnit2]

(05-06-2018, 06:12 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I really don't care to partake in a detailed argument breaking down Dalton. We've been through this countless times.

By the way, if you do want to use facts, just check out his QBR rating the last couple years relative to the rest of the league and you will come to the conclusion that he's been very average, perhaps even below average. 

You could also see QB rankings that experts provide and he's always in that 14-20 range. He's an average QB according to nearly everyone outside of Cincinnati.

No facts argument because you lose every time with your opinion based BS maybe??

[*bfine32*]

(05-06-2018, 06:12 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I really don't care to partake in a detailed argument breaking down Dalton. We've been through this countless times.

By the way, if you do want to use facts, just check out his QBR rating the last couple years relative to the rest of the league and you will come to the conclusion that he's been very average, perhaps even below average. 

You could also see QB rankings that experts provide and he's always in that 14-20 range. He's an average QB according to nearly everyone outside of Cincinnati.

Yeah average is a good term to describe Andy and average can win it all if the rest of the team is clicking 100%.

As to Andy's stats folks will point to career passer rating where Andy ranks 10th. 10th out of 24 (thanks Chad Henne) is average. I think he's finished top 10 in passer rating twice in his career (it may only be once). The best thing Andy has going for him is this franchise is OK with average, so Andy's be able to be so much longer than most QBs that consistently finish middle of the pack. 

Hell if folks would have given Tyrod Taylor a chance to start he's be about 2 spots ahead of Andy; unfortunately, his teams are always looking for better. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-06-2018, 06:26 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No fcats argument because you lose every time with your opinion based BS maybe??

I can list plenty facts that shows Andy is an average NFL QB. But why bother? 

[CornerBlitz]

(05-06-2018, 06:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah average is a good term to describe Andy and average can win it all if the rest of the team is clicking 100%.

As to Andy's stats folks will point to career passer rating where Andy ranks 10th. 10th out of 24 (thanks Chad Henne) is average. I think he's finished top 10 in passer rating twice in his career (it may only be once). The best thing Andy has going for him is this franchise is OK with average, so Andy's be able to be so much longer than most QBs that consistently finish middle of the pack. 

Hell if folks would have given Tyrod Taylor a chance to start he's be about 2 spots ahead of Andy; unfortunately, his teams are always looking for better. 

I find it funny how people hate Marvin and want to can him yet defend Dalton and think that we shouldn't even consider another option at QB moving forward. Shoot, they don't even want to draft a decent back up....it really makes no sense.  

At least you are consistent, you have no issue with an average coach and QB. That is where we differ.

[Neon Icon]

People can debate AD all they want...but the Bengalz don't appear to want to move on. That's all that matters.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-06-2018, 06:12 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I really don't care to partake in a detailed argument breaking down Dalton. We've been through this countless times.

By the way, if you do want to use facts, just check out his QBR rating the last couple years relative to the rest of the league and you will come to the conclusion that he's been very average, perhaps even below average. 

You could also see QB rankings that experts provide and he's always in that 14-20 range. He's an average QB according to nearly everyone outside of Cincinnati.

He's not below average, but on the whole, if average were a fence, he'd be sitting right on top of it. 

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2018, 06:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell if folks would have given Tyrod Taylor a chance to start he's be about 2 spots ahead of Andy; unfortunately, his teams are always looking for better. 

Tyrod Taylor is a limited QB who has never thrown more than 20 tds in a seasoon.  Over the three years he has been a starter the Bills have the #1 rushing offense in the league which has made his job much easier.

His team is loooking for better because they need better.

Any team that had a QB like Dalton would be locking him up with a long term contract.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2018, 06:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to Andy's stats folks will point to career passer rating where Andy ranks 10th. 10th out of 24 (thanks Chad Henne) is average. I think he's finished top 10 in passer rating twice in his career (it may only be once). The best thing Andy has going for him is this franchise is OK with average, so Andy's be able to be so much longer than most QBs that consistently finish middle of the pack. 

There are 45 active QBs with at least 750 career attempts.  Dalton ranks 13th of 45.

You can call him "average" because you make up your own definition of "average", but based on his stats and production any team that had him would lock him up long term instead of looking for another QB.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2018, 07:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm gonna go with the guy that has won 27 playoff games, Now if they were tied in wins; I'd most likely go with the one with the better performances in the playoffs. 

I must admit, I'm not sure (much like the Marvin Jones comment) what point you are failing to make. Or your assertion playoff stats are not relevant to playoff games.

No doubt.....I'd take Jim Haslett over Mediocre Merv as HC too.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2018, 08:16 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Ahahahahahah !!!!!!!! Ahahahahahahaha !!!!!!! Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah !!!!!!!

That ^ is hilarious.

How about your boy, Andy Dalton, once again pooping his pants in an important game vs AJ McCarron actually getting better as the game wore on? In the playoffs, Aj McCarron MADE HIS IMPORTANT THROW to AJ Green while Andy Dalton has routinely missed his.

Texans game, Andy missed a wide open AJ to take the lead with around 2mins left. Steelers game, McCarron HITS AJ Green on a big play to lead to the score. Andy melts under the spotlight. McCarron shines.

Let's examine this Chargers game you laughably bashed the Defense for.... In that Chargers game, that defense was F'd in the A by Andy. At half time the Bengals had the lead 10-7. Good job defense. Andy Dallton.... where are you? Oh, wait, here he is.....

Andy then leads the team to a 4 & out coming out of half time. And then (UNTOUCHED BY ANYONE) fumbles on the 46 = SD field goal. And then an interception on the Bengals 33 = SD FG. And then YET ANOTHER INT on the SD 32. So, to recap, "big game" Andy needs a diaper change.

Andy Dalton is trash in big games. Period. Point blank. But, hey.... he can really light up those Browns twice a year to pad his stats, right? Oh, wait... unless it's Thursday night football. In that case, he reverts back to trash. 

Still hilarious

Like when he fumbled away our first round bye after shitting his pants the entire 2nd half in Denver?  



Good Lord man......

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-05-2018, 09:41 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Instead of nitpicking game by game which does nobody any good, can't we just have a general consensus?

1. Andy Dalton has played like crap in the playoffs.

2.AJM didn't play very well in his one playoff game but started to show signs towards the end and did get the team very close to winning.

3. Dalton is probably better than AJM overall even with the inferior playoff play.

4. Dalton overall is a mediocre QB that sucks when it counts the most.  

/thread

What signs?  He hit ONE FUGGIN THROW!

That's where I take issue with all of this.  As for the rest, I pretty much agree.  AJM is a backup, nothing more, nothing less.  He didn't really do shit except hit a wide open Green, who everyone says is the only reason Andy Dalton ever completed a NFL pass.


So, for those keeping score at home:

If AJ Green catches a pass from Andy Dalton:

"Huuuurrrrr durrrrrr Andy Dalton sucks....the only reason that pass was completed is because AJ Green bailed him out....."


If AJ Green catches a pass from AJ McCarron:

"OMG....did yinz see that through?  We can haz Super BowZ!  How clutch!!!!"

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-06-2018, 05:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Does the word average fit better? Regardless of what adjective you want to use to describe him i think most reasonable NFL observers understand what Dalton is. He's an average starting QB.

With that said he has been a highly inferior QB in the playoffs.  Nobody can deny any of this....the only difference is that some want to put the ENTIRE blame on Marvin Lewis which I disagree with. Blame is to go around....Marvin and Dalton share it.  We've been through this discussion countless times though and the Dalton fans can't come to grips with this.

I just blame Merv more.  He was choking away playoff games before Dalton even entered high school.  He still chokes them away.  At some point, ya gotta ask "have we continued to draft/trade for/sign choking players/QBs for 15 years, or are we not putting our players in the best position to succeed and getting outcoached?".   I mean, which is more logical to you?

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 11:32 AM)Wyche Wrote:  At some point, ya gotta ask "have we continued to draft/trade for/sign choking players/QBs for 15 years, or are we not putting our players in the best position to succeed and getting outcoached?".   I mean, which is more logical to you?

How many Bengal players have went to other teams and played well in the playoffs?

I'll admit it is hard to explain, but for example look at the 2013 season.  When we played the Chargers in December they were 5-6 and fighting as hard as they could to make the playoffs.  I don't see how you could claim that the coaches or players held anything back.  They were trying as hard as they could to win.  I don't see how they could have "stepped it up" in the playoffs.

I just don't buy this claim that players and coaches for other teams don't try as hard during the regular season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2018, 11:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: How many Bengal players have went to other teams and played well in the playoffs?

I'll admit it is hard to explain, but for example look at the 2013 season.  When we played the Chargers in December they were 5-6 and fighting as hard as they could to make the playoffs.  I don't see how you could claim that the coaches or players held anything back.  They were trying as hard as they could to win.  I don't see how they could have "stepped it up" in the playoffs.

I just don't buy this claim that players and coaches for other teams don't try as hard during the regular season.

Well, Palmer did go on to win a playoff game....although I wouldn't say he sat the world on fire.  Others are Rex Burkhead, Mo Sanu, JJoe, Flowers, (did Housh win any?), Whit, Big Willie, Ochocinco, Jon Kitna in Dallas, although injured early.....Benson in GB, these are just off the top of my head.


 Here's my theory.  It's two fold.  The team always has a fatal flaw or two, and that gets exposed in the playoffs more than it does in the regular season against also rans (and sometimes you're facing an opponent for the 2nd time, they learn your tendencies).  Second, we seem to be more interested in making our players fit a scheme more than adapting our scheme to our players' strengths.  Talent can overcome that at times, but not when the opponent is playoff caliber.  Teams add wrinkles and adjust as the season goes on, and often have plays they keep stashed away until the postseason.  These are things we don't seem to do.

As for 2013......we've discussed this before, and you don't agree with me.  We gave them a healthy dose of BJGE in San Diego and controlled the clock.  In Cincy, we forgot him on the bench early in the 2nd half.  I think we may have have out thought ourselves.

Then, there's just that "clutch gene".......some have it, some don't.  If you buy into that sort of thing.


EDIT: I see you said "played well in the playoffs", not won a playoff game. Still, Rex, Mo, Whit, and JJoe all at least played well in postseason games. Palmer played well enough.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 12:34 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, Palmer did go on to win a playoff game....although I wouldn't say he sat the world on fire.  Others are Rex Burkhead, Mo Sanu, JJoe, Flowers, (did Housh win any?), Whit, Big Willie, Ochocinco, Jon Kitna in Dallas, although injured early.....Benson in GB, these are just off the top of my head.


 Here's my theory.  It's two fold.  The team always has a fatal flaw or two, and that gets exposed in the playoffs more than it does in the regular season against also rans (and sometimes you're facing an opponent for the 2nd time, they learn your tendencies).  Second, we seem to be more interested in making our players fit a scheme more than adapting our scheme to our players' strengths.  Talent can overcome that at times, but not when the opponent is playoff caliber.  Teams add wrinkles and adjust as the season goes on, and often have plays they keep stashed away until the postseason.  These are things we don't seem to do.

As for 2013......we've discussed this before, and you don't agree with me.  We gave them a healthy dose of BJGE in San Diego and controlled the clock.  In Cincy, we forgot him on the bench early in the 2nd half.  I think we may have have out thought ourselves.

Then, there's just that "clutch gene".......some have it, some don't.  If you buy into that sort of thing.


EDIT:  I see you said "played well in the playoffs", not won a playoff game.  Still, Rex, Mo, Whit, and JJoe all at least played well in postseason games.  Palmer played well enough.

The game he had in the divisional round would be legendary around here. Word was that he was shaky in that one, but it would be our top playoff performance ever. No Bengals QB has ever thrown 300+ yards with a 90+ rating in the playoffs. Palmer threw for 349 and 3 TDs with a 92.4 rating against Green Bay.