The QB position

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2018, 09:55 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I’ve read through this entire thread and then I watched about 30 minutes of Andy Dalton videos on YouTube.  I’m sticking with Andy.

Well as long as you have watched 30 minutes of YouTube videos

[impactplaya]

I know this about Dalton.
he's not a elite QB but he's far from the bottom tier of the league.
he's never going to be the QB that can consistently elevate the talent around him.
this is not a excuse for Dalton this is fact.
hes had the following OCs in his career...Gruden Jackson Zampese Lazor.
all 4 very distinctive in how they construct the playbook.
make no mistake about it...Zampese set Dalton back.
Ogbughi hasn't helped Dalton. Bodine getting punched the mouth and driven back into the pocket
didnt help.
show me a great QB I will.show you great center.
the defense and return games haven't helped hIm either.
starting from the 22 yard line over and over condenses the playbook and helps the defense out
I do.think Daltons window of playing at a peak level is closing though.
he's a good QB who.at times needs complimentary football around him.to.help him.help the team.
it's a team.game
the Eagles won the title with Nick Foles closing the deal
he's far from elite
.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-12-2018, 06:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Don't play like he has a monopoly of refusing to acknowledge facts because of bias. 

What facts am I refusing to acknowledge? It is other people who refuse to consider things like QBR rating because it makes him look bad. I guarantee you that if his QBR was better these same people would be screaming about how great his QBR rating is. I've also brought up other things such as QB rating which for the most part pegs him in that average category. There is also more to it than just stats such as playing well when the lights are bright or the playoffs and we all know that he's stunk it up.

Again, all I'm saying is that he's an average QB.  I acknowledge that he had a great season in 2015 and that he is well worth the money we are paying him.  I just think that if we want to make a run at the Lombardi we need to either replace the QB or the coach, preferably both. 

If that is refusing facts or having a bias opinion then you need to explain what is it that i've said above that is out of line.

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 01:20 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: What facts am I refusing to acknowledge? It is other people who refuse to consider things like QBR rating because it makes him look bad. I guarantee you that if his QBR was better these same people would be screaming about how great his QBR rating is. I've also brought up other things such as QB rating which for the most part pegs him in that average category.  There is also more to it than just stats such as playing well when the lights are bright or the playoffs and we all know that he's stunk it up.  

Again, all I'm saying is that he's an average QB.  I acknowledge that he had a great season in 2015 and that he is well worth the money we are paying him.  I just think that if we want to make a run at the Lombardi we need to either replace the QB or the coach, preferably both. 

If that is refusing facts or having a bias opinion then you need to explain what is it that i've said above that is out of line.

The problem is that you never define "average".  You try to weasel around acting like you are agreeing with everyone htne you claim "We can never win with dalton".

So just give me a list of all the current QBs you think could win a Super Bowl.  Maybe if we could just gte you to define "average" we could stop going around in circles saying the same thjing over and over again.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 10:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well as long as you have watched 30 minutes of YouTube videos

And read every possible argument Bfine could make.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-14-2018, 11:51 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I know this about Dalton.
he's not a elite QB but he's far from the bottom tier of the league.
he's never going to be the QB that can consistently elevate the talent around him.
this is not a excuse for Dalton this is fact.
hes had the following OCs in his career...Gruden Jackson Zampese Lazor.
all 4 very distinctive in how they construct the playbook.
make no mistake about it...Zampese set  Dalton back.
Ogbughi hasn't helped Dalton. Bodine getting punched the mouth and driven back into the pocket
didnt help.
show me a great QB I will.show you  great center.
the defense and return games haven't helped hIm either.
starting from the 22 yard line over and over condenses the playbook and helps the defense out
I do.think Daltons window of playing at a peak level is closing though.
he's a good QB who.at times needs complimentary football around him.to.help him.help the team.
it's a team.game
the Eagles won the title with Nick Foles closing the deal
he's far from elite
.

100% this.  It's really this simple.  I'd add that he can still win games with a mediocre supporting cast, so long as the line is adequate.  See 2014.  His biggest issue, is the issue with a lot of QBs....pressure up the gut and from the blindside consistently causes him issues.  He doesn't even really need an all-world cast of skill position players to succeed, he just needs protection.  He is not going to win you games if you can't protect him.  It's just that simple.

[grampahol]

(05-14-2018, 09:55 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I’ve read through this entire thread and then I watched about 30 minutes of Andy Dalton videos on YouTube.  I’m sticking with Andy.

I really hate to do this to you, but there are videos on YouTube that present as fact some .. oh, lets just call them questionable "facts" such as the Earth being flat and NASA hiding it from everyone..  I'm not saying that the Earth isn't flat in a few select locations, but overall it's kinda roundish.. as Ferdinand Magellan once observed, "I know the Earth is round for I have seen the shadow on the moon." That admittedly doesn't have a lot to do with Andy, but not all YouTube videos are created equally.. 

[*PhilHos*]

(05-15-2018, 01:20 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: What facts am I refusing to acknowledge? It is other people who refuse to consider things like QBR rating because it makes him look bad. 

It has nothing to do with Dalton and everything to do with the fact that QBR is a bullshit stat.

[Sled21]

Andy Dalton has the 2nd fastest release in the NFL, and still can't get the ball out before pressure collapses his pocket and the D gets to him. To those wanting to replace him, who do you suggest we get that has a faster release, and can take the pounding Dalton takes on a game by game basis and not be hurt, is available and affordable. I'll wait.....

[Shake n Blake]

(05-15-2018, 08:56 AM)Wyche Wrote: 100% this.  It's really this simple.  I'd add that he can still win games with a mediocre supporting cast, so long as the line is adequate.  See 2014.  His biggest issue, is the issue with a lot of QBs....pressure up the gut and from the blindside consistently causes him issues.  He doesn't even really need an all-world cast of skill position players to succeed, he just needs protection.  He is not going to win you games if you can't protect him.  It's just that simple.

Fair assessment here. Most QB's don't like pressure, but you can rattle Dalton and throw his mechanics and timing out of whack if he's constantly pressured. The only 2 years where his protection was solid and his receivers didn't look like a MASH unit, he posted the following seasons:

2013: 4293 yards and 33 TDs (both franchise records), 88.8 rating (15th of 37 qualifying QB's)
2015: 4199 yards and 33 TDs (his pace prior to injury), 106.3 rating (2nd of 34 qualifying QB's, and a franchise record)

In 2011, he was a rookie.
In 2012, he was sacked a Bengals record 46 times (still somehow had 31 TD's overall and ranked 13th in passer rating)
In 2014, AJ Green, Eifert and MLJ missed a combined 35 games. Dalton still had some gutsy performances, but the overall numbers weren't pretty.
In 2016-17, the line has been a disaster AND we were missing Green and Eifert for a lot of games. Dalton hasn't been bad really, but I know he'd be better with time to throw.

[sandwedge]

(05-15-2018, 02:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair assessment here. Most QB's don't like pressure, but you can rattle Dalton and throw his mechanics and timing out of whack if he's constantly pressured. The only 2 years where his protection was solid and his receivers didn't look like a MASH unit, he posted the following seasons:

2013: 4293 yards and 33 TDs (both franchise records), 88.8 rating (15th of 37 qualifying QB's)
2015: 4199 yards and 33 TDs (his pace prior to injury), 106.3 rating (2nd of 34 qualifying QB's, and a franchise record)

In 2011, he was a rookie.
In 2012, he was sacked a Bengals record 46 times (still somehow had 31 TD's overall and ranked 13th in passer rating)
In 2014, AJ Green, Eifert and MLJ missed a combined 35 games. Dalton still had some gutsy performances, but the overall numbers weren't pretty.
In 2016-17, the line has been a disaster AND we were missing Green and Eifert for a lot of games. Dalton hasn't been bad really, but I know he'd be better with time to throw.

IMO, 2016 was his best year. Pretty much had no receivers, Eifert injured, Green missed the last 8 games or something like that and Dalton still had us in games. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-15-2018, 02:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair assessment here. Most QB's don't like pressure, but you can rattle Dalton and throw his mechanics and timing out of whack if he's constantly pressured. The only 2 years where his protection was solid and his receivers didn't look like a MASH unit, he posted the following seasons:

2013: 4293 yards and 33 TDs (both franchise records), 88.8 rating (15th of 37 qualifying QB's)
2015: 4199 yards and 33 TDs (his pace prior to injury), 106.3 rating (2nd of 34 qualifying QB's, and a franchise record)

In 2011, he was a rookie.
In 2012, he was sacked a Bengals record 46 times (still somehow had 31 TD's overall and ranked 13th in passer rating)
In 2014, AJ Green, Eifert and MLJ missed a combined 35 games. Dalton still had some gutsy performances, but the overall numbers weren't pretty.
In 2016-17, the line has been a disaster AND we were missing Green and Eifert for a lot of games. Dalton hasn't been bad really, but I know he'd be better with time to throw.

How we managed to win 10 games and get into the playoffs with that roster just proves what he can do if protected, even without top notch talent catching the ball.  Didn't he have 4 rushing TDs and a TD reception in '14?

(05-15-2018, 04:13 PM)sandwedge Wrote: IMO, 2016 was his best year. Pretty much had no receivers, Eifert injured, Green missed the last 8 games or something like that and Dalton still had us in games. 

He started out in 2016 like he ended 2015, remember the Jets game?  He was sacked like 7 times, still put up over 360 yards passing, and we won the game.  By the end of the year, he was rattled though, and that carried over into last season.  I still look at '14.....the line was good, Hill had a good year, but the receiving corps was decimated by injury.  Winning 10 games was nothing to sneeze at, all things considered.

[*bfine32*]

(05-15-2018, 12:33 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Andy Dalton has the 2nd fastest release in the NFL, and still can't get the ball out before pressure collapses his pocket and the D gets to him. To those wanting to replace him, who do you suggest we get that has a faster release, and can take the pounding Dalton takes on a game by game basis and not be hurt, is available and affordable. I'll wait.....

Are these just canned responses that folks through out when there is ever an Andy Thread?

Who has suggested that we get rid of him in this thread? 

Here's how it went down if you need a recap:

Dudes starts a thread asking about our need for a backup at QB

Another dude says: It doesn't matter who your backup is, if the starter goes down, the season is over

Another dude says: This is not true, The closest we've come to winning a playoff game and the best performance by a QB in the last 1/4 century was when we had a backup playing

A bunch of other dudes: How can  you disrespect Andy so? 

[Brownshoe]

(05-15-2018, 06:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are these just canned responses that folks through out when there is ever an Andy Thread?

Who has suggested that we get rid of him in this thread? 

Here's how it went down if you need a recap:

Dudes starts a thread asking about our need for a backup at QB

Another dude says: It doesn't matter who your backup is, if the starter goes down, the season is over

Another dude says: This is not true, The closest we've come to winning a playoff game and the best performance by a QB in the last 1/4 century was when we had a backup playing

A bunch of other dudes: How can  you disrespect Andy so? 

Actually the OP was about replacing Dalton in this draft for the future.

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 06:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who has suggested that we get rid of him in this thread? 

SoCal, BengalChris, and CornerBlitz have all said we can't win with him and has to be replaced.

I assume Pdub said it also but I don't have time to go back and find an exact quote from him.

[*bfine32*]

(05-15-2018, 06:57 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Actually the OP was about replacing Dalton in this draft for the future.

Oh, I have no problem with looking to draft an upgrade for the future. Who the hell could?

But as I read the retorts they are asking who to replace Andy with now; as they ask who is available. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-15-2018, 07:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: SoCal, BengalChris, and CornerBlitz have all said we can't win with him and has to be replaced.

I assume Pdub said it also but I don't have time to go back and find an exact quote from him.

Well they are incorrect we can absolutely win with Andy Dalton. I was just going against the notion that we cannot win without him. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-15-2018, 07:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, I have no problem with looking to draft an upgrade for the future. Who the hell could?

But as I read the retorts they are asking who to replace Andy with now; as they ask who is available. 

You said the OP wasn't about replacing him, and now you're saying it was but for the future.

I'm all for drafting upgrades at any position, but there wasn't an upgrade available, and Price was probably BPA at that point too or at least close to it. Drafting an OL was the right choice in the first, especially with how the draft was playing out. There was no QB worthwhile on the board when the Bengals were picking either.

[CornerBlitz]

(05-15-2018, 08:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So just give me a list of all the current QBs you think could win a Super Bowl.  Maybe if we could just gte you to define "average" we could stop going around in circles saying the same thjing over and over again.

As long as Marvin Lewis is our coach we won't win with a mediocre/average QB like Dalton. Perhaps if we had an elite coach we could. 

On the flip side, if Marvin had a great QB I think we could also win.

The bottom line is that the Marvin Lewis/Andy Dalton combo is not capable of winning a SB....hell they may not even be capable of winning a playoff game. 

[CornerBlitz]

(05-15-2018, 01:20 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: What facts am I refusing to acknowledge? It is other people who refuse to consider things like QBR rating because it makes him look bad. I guarantee you that if his QBR was better these same people would be screaming about how great his QBR rating is. I've also brought up other things such as QB rating which for the most part pegs him in that average category.  There is also more to it than just stats such as playing well when the lights are bright or the playoffs and we all know that he's stunk it up.  

Again, all I'm saying is that he's an average QB.  I acknowledge that he had a great season in 2015 and that he is well worth the money we are paying him.  I just think that if we want to make a run at the Lombardi we need to either replace the QB or the coach, preferably both. 

If that is refusing facts or having a bias opinion then you need to explain what is it that i've said above that is out of line.

Since you ignored me i will take it that you have no rebuttal.