Whit & Zeitler Vs Geno & Carlos

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(08-30-2018, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  No way Whit and Zeitler effected contracts signed by MJ, Rey, and Vincent that were signed years earlier.

2.  Og was coming off a rookie season where he missed all of training camp due to injury, and Fisher looked promising as a rookie.  Noe way you can say the KNEW they had no good replacements.

3.  There is no way to create cap room other than to cut players or take money away from guys who are already here.  Also a team can not make a player re-structure a deal that is in place, and restructuring a deal does not solve the problem.  All it does is push it down the road.

1. But in order to sign other players they could have cut or re-worked MJ, Rey, Dre
2. Og was useless in his second year here and Fisher struggled as well, everyone knew it was a HUGE risk counting on either of them. 
3. Yes it pushes the cap down the road, but that is a tool teams use, we instead push unused cap space down the road. If a player will not re-structure, you cut him. Right now, i would rather have a good RG then MJ.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(08-30-2018, 12:40 PM)Joelist Wrote: And this is part of the Piano Man legacy we are still dealing with. Piano Man was the one who insisted on Ogbuehi - don’t know if he insisted on Fisher too.

Do some root cause analysis - why was PA here that long?

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(08-30-2018, 01:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You can't draft them if they are not there. After the first round, there were few linemen that were worth a crap to draft, even if we wanted to... Next year is a much better crop....

I agree, can't reach for position. However, teams also scout a year or two ahead of the draft so they generally will know well in advance that "2020 will be a good year for OT" for example. All part of proper building of a team - know your weaknesses, gaps and know HOW you can fill them - draft, free agency or trades or whatever. 

End of the day Og and Fischer have been bad picks, relying on them was an even worse decision, and not dealing with that is still a bad decision. 

[Socal Bengals fan]

(08-30-2018, 02:05 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: 1. But in order to sign other players they could have cut or re-worked MJ, Rey, Dre
2. Og was useless in his second year here and Fisher struggled as well, everyone knew it was a HUGE risk counting on either of them. 
3. Yes it pushes the cap down the road, but that is a tool teams use, we instead push unused cap space down the road. If a player will not re-structure, you cut him. Right now, i would rather have a good RG then MJ.

This. I believe most knew Ogbuehi would fail after watching his second year flop. Same for Fisher.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(08-30-2018, 02:42 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: This. I believe most knew Ogbuehi would fail after watching his second year flop. Same for Fisher.

Indeed. Too often this team relies on "Ifs, ands and buts" to succeed. IF the OL comes together AND Dalton is more consistent AND accurate BUT we have no injuries AND ML coaches better, etc etc

[Whodey614]

Anyone remember the Texans game on Christmas Eve in 2016 where Ogbuehi started at LT and had Whit next to him at LG and still looked like total garbage? It's weird that the Bengals watched that game and thought "Well, he's played terrible at RT all season so let's give him a trial run at LT for one game since this might be our future" and felt comfortable moving on from Whit. Zeitler, I can understand not resigning but they definitely could've had Whit back. Marvin even said he thought Whit was on his way to coming back here. So that was completely on Mike Brown and whatever BS Paul Alexander fed him about Ogbuehi being able to handle that spot.

Then again, Ogbuehi and Fisher falling flat on their face last year finally got PA outta here so maybe it works out, after all, speaking long term. Fisher has slowly gotten better throughout the preseason, maybe he takes RT after all. I personally hope Ogbuehi is cut on Saturday.

[*Go Cards*]

Love OL, yet would have to choose Geno and Carlos.

[3wt]

(08-30-2018, 10:35 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: not when the goal was to reduce his salary.

I think their goal was not to hang on to his salary for as long as Whit wanted them to.  If I recall correctly (which is always subject to failure on my part) the Bengals offered Whit a competitive salary but were unwilling to give it to him for very long - possibly even a one year contract.

I mean it's reasonable to project that a guy as old as Whit was was unlikely to play at that level for long.  And we had two high round picks who had not had a camp yet waiting in the wings, so there were only so many roster spots.

For me paying Whit for 3 years was a necessary risk as Og and Fish had never looked good at anything but fullback and TE (Fisher).   It's taken me a white to admit that they could not afford to pay both he and Zeitler.   The only way to hedge your bet without committing for longer was to Franchise Whit.

It's kind of interesting that Whit is letting them restructure his deal.  But 1) they gave him the deal and 2) the Rams are a contender...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

Nice thread Shady.

Definately a great question. I think in the end it turned out best, but at the time i was furious we didn't keep
Whit. Zeitler was not an option as he was testing the market and was severely overpaid by the Stains.

I take Geno and Los' everytime and having Glenn now who is much younger than Whit is great in the end.

[3wt]

(08-30-2018, 03:23 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: Anyone remember the Texans game on Christmas Eve in 2016 where Ogbuehi started at LT and had Whit next to him at LG and still looked like total garbage? It's weird that the Bengals watched that game and thought "Well, he's played terrible at RT all season so let's give him a trial run at LT for one game since this might be our future" and felt comfortable moving on from Whit. Zeitler, I can understand not resigning but they definitely could've had Whit back. Marvin even said he thought Whit was on his way to coming back here. So that was completely on Mike Brown and whatever BS Paul Alexander fed him about Ogbuehi being able to handle that spot.

Then again, Ogbuehi and Fisher falling flat on their face last year finally got PA outta here so maybe it works out, after all, speaking long term. Fisher has slowly gotten better throughout the preseason, maybe he takes RT after all. I personally hope Ogbuehi is cut on Saturday.

I didn't get to watch all of his snaps closely, but I thought Og did a good job in the run game.  He was getting out on the 2nd level better than he ever has and was finishing his blocks, which he's never done.

Trouble is that he still walked right into Dalton.   I just don't think after 3 years he'll ever be able to develop the core strength to handle the bull rush.

[wolfkaosaun]

The Bengals could have signed Geno, Carlos, and Whit.

Whitworth earned more last year than he ever has with the Bengals, and it was only $2 million more. He had more guaranteed money. The Rams also had an option in their contract that they could opt out of the contract in 2018 if he didn't do well last year.

[Whatever]

(08-30-2018, 03:26 PM)3wt Wrote: I think their goal was not to hang on to his salary for as long as Whit wanted them to.  If I recall correctly (which is always subject to failure on my part) the Bengals offered Whit a competitive salary but were unwilling to give it to him for very long - possibly even a one year contract.

I mean it's reasonable to project that a guy as old as Whit was was unlikely to play at that level for long.  And we had two high round picks who had not had a camp yet waiting in the wings, so there were only so many roster spots.

For me paying Whit for 3 years was a necessary risk as Og and Fish had never looked good at anything but fullback and TE (Fisher).   It's taken me a white to admit that they could not afford to pay both he and Zeitler.   The only way to hedge your bet without committing for longer was to Franchise Whit.

It's kind of interesting that Whit is letting them restructure his deal.  But 1) they gave him the deal and 2) the Rams are a contender...

Whit's restructuring is basically going to amount to converting most of his salary this year into a signing bonus so that the Rams can spread the cap hit out over next year.  There's really no reason for him to fight it.  He'll make the same money either way.

As for the original topic, I think the Bengals made out better long term by letting Whit go, but they definitely suffered for it last year.  If not for last year, the Bengals wouldn't have traded for Glenn and thusly wouldn't have been in a position to draft Price.

[jorev5]

I think the Whit leaving because we had two young tackles might have helped get rid of PA. And for that reason, I think we all have to be content with how everything unfolded. We were going to lose Whit at some point. But this way, we get rid of PA and move forward.

[Circleville Guy]

I wanted Mike to tag Whit for the year, I just thought that was the obvious and best business move to make. A Z deal would have been a bad overpay. I believe in using the tag if it can help the team win. I wouldn’t care about feelings getting hurt, it’s about winning. It’s a business decision, not unlike the business decision that Whit made.

[fredtoast]

(08-30-2018, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2.  Og was coming off a rookie season where he missed all of training camp due to injury, and Fisher looked promising as a rookie.  Noe way you can say the KNEW they had no good replacements.

Don't know what I was thinking when I made this post.  We had seen 2 years of the Ogbuehi train wreck when Whit left in free agency.

[fredtoast]

(08-30-2018, 02:06 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Do some root cause analysis - why was PA here that long?

Because before the tragedies of Bodine and Ogbuehi Alexander was one of the best O-line coaches in the league.

[BengalChris]

(08-30-2018, 02:24 AM)Shady Wrote: I've never put any effort into understanding the cap, and I don't keep tabs on how much $$$ the Bengals organization is under the cap, but I was just wondering about something.

Had we paid Whit and Zeitler the money needed to keep them, would we have been able to extend Geno and Carlos?

I kind of doubt it. Does anybody here have a more definitive answer?

If we couldn't have afforded to keep all 4, which 2 would you have preferred? I'd go with Carlos and Geno. Defense wins championships.

BTW, I hate how the rising salaries are destroying the game. If you build a good-great team, you'll never be able to afford to keep them together for very long.

To start with the Bengals could have signed both of them for less than they got on the open market. When Zeitler was in his option year he could have been signed for around what DeCastro got, which was around 9M per year. The Bengals low balled Whit but he would have stayed for a decent contract.

The team then would not have signed Kirkpatrick for 12M per year. That's where I believe we'd have seen them save money.

We could still sign Geno and Dunlap. But I'm sure our draft priorities would have changed.

But, that's all speculation.

[fredtoast]

(08-31-2018, 02:21 AM)BengalChris Wrote: The Bengals low balled Whit but he would have stayed for a decent contract.

Link?

[TSwigZ]

They plotted this the second they drafted OBoobie and fisher and we had to alternate a little

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-30-2018, 08:23 AM)Sled21 Wrote: First, rising salaries are not destroying the game. They are ridiculous, but while salaries go up, so does the cap. Basically, it just means everything is more expensive for the fans. Second, Whit was older than dirt, when it comes to O-linemen. Can we get over the decision not to offer him a 3 year stupid deal. They offered him a very good one year deal, which he turned down. Yes, he proved he could still play, but at the time all the odds were against that. Thirdly, what the Factory of Sadness paid Zeitler was insane for what he brought. Yes, he was good, but he was too expensive. The problems the Bengals have do not come from not resigning those players..... they come from not drafting or trading for quality replacements.

I heard a stat of sorts on the NFL Network yesterday that Aaron Rogers' new deal would place him behind 61 contracts in the NBA, in terms of guaranteed money.  They listed names of guys I had never heard of before that made more in the NBA than Rogers.

Baseball is the same way.  

I think the NFL is the sport that has the best competitive balance of all the major sports.  I do believe, however, they need to address long term health care for their former players.  I wonder why they haven't created their own insurance company.