We Might Have Missed BIG Time (2017 Draft)

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 11:13 AM)thillan Wrote: True, though he hasn't really done much in the postseason either. 

I lived near the KC area, and how many fans thought of their team was pretty much the same as we think of ours. Can be competitive but gets beat by better teams when it counts, loses in 1st round of playoffs even when they are a better team, and don't seem to be able to string together a dominate season.

How a young QB changes things.

I guess we have to keep waiting until the league "figures Mahomes out." Only way that happens is if you put a horrible O-line and bad talent around him.

Yeah KC fans may feel that way, but that doesn't change reality. Andy Reid has 11 playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance. His regular season win percentage (.609) is also significantly higher than Marvin's (.528) and Reid has always been a QB guru. Plus he doesn't have the prime-time or division rival issues that Marvin has. He'd be a massive upgrade to Marvin Lewis.

Mahomes wouldn't be as successful under the defensive minded Marvin Lewis. I'm not sure why people woefully underestimate the impact of the Head Coach, but you need look no further than Jared Goff and Nick Foles under Jeff Fisher. Or Alex Smith under Mike Singletary. Or Trubisky under John Fox. Etc etc etc.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(10-22-2018, 01:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah KC fans may feel that way, but that doesn't change reality. Andy Reid has 11 playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance. His regular season win percentage (.609) is also significantly higher than Marvin's (.528) and Reid has always been a QB guru. Plus he doesn't have the prime-time or division rival issues that Marvin has. He'd be a massive upgrade to Marvin Lewis.

Mahomes wouldn't be as successful under the defensive minded Marvin Lewis. I'm not sure why people woefully underestimate the impact of the Head Coach, but you need look no further than Jared Goff and Nick Foles under Jeff Fisher. Or Alex Smith under Mike Singletary. Or Trubisky under John Fox. Etc etc etc.

Good points. 

The issue with this team starts and ends at the top. Fix that and the rest follows.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 02:57 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Good points. 

The issue with this team starts and ends at the top. Fix that and the rest follows.

I'm open to the QB being the problem IF and only IF we solve the issues up top first. Replace Marv and Dalton still sucks in playoff games? Send Dalton packing. Until then, it doesn't seem fair to get a pitchfork out for Dalton, when Marv has had these problems for 16 years.

It's just hard to look at Marv and think "gee, if we keep drafting QB's til we find another Mahomes, everything will be a-ok!" - Nevermind the fact that Mahomes is just one of dozens of QB's taken in the 1st round over the last 10 years. Even if we hit the lotto and landed a guy like that, Marv isn't getting the production out of him that Andy Reid is.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-08-2018, 07:41 AM)YsCascadia Wrote: For now.

What will happen when he is being baited into those throws and has more INTs than TDs?

The reason guys like, RGIII, Kaepernick, Watson, Prescott, Bridgewater and others are no longer the darlings is because they couldn't keep making the throws that are costly.  Mahomes SHOULD appear special right now.  He has had some easier outings than it appears.  I wonder which is harder, playing Jags in Jacksonville or in KC?  Who is a better HC, Jeff Fisher or Andy Reid?  Who is a better playmaker, Hill or Ross?  Better security blanket, Kelce or Eifert?

I could go on, but the point is simple.  With everything around Mahomes, he should be doing the things he is doing.  I keep hearing how Dalton needs players and the right circumstances to be successful,  I argue every QB needs that.  Mahomes is benefiting off of the situation he is in.  Wilson did the same and now look at Seattle, no legion of boom, no OLine, no TE, no WR, no Beast Mode.  The shine has dulled on the SB win and close repeat, Wilson is no longer the super star QB they were claiming him to be.  Can he dazzle with some good plays?  Yep, but he hasn't produced the Wins that he was getting earlier in his career.

I think Bridgewater shredding a knee has more to do with his demise than anything.  Teddy was never known as careless with the ball.

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 01:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah KC fans may feel that way, but that doesn't change reality. Andy Reid has 11 playoff wins and a Super Bowl appearance. His regular season win percentage (.609) is also significantly higher than Marvin's (.528) and Reid has always been a QB guru. Plus he doesn't have the prime-time or division rival issues that Marvin has. He'd be a massive upgrade to Marvin Lewis.

Mahomes wouldn't be as successful under the defensive minded Marvin Lewis. I'm not sure why people woefully underestimate the impact of the Head Coach, but you need look no further than Jared Goff and Nick Foles under Jeff Fisher. Or Alex Smith under Mike Singletary. Or Trubisky under John Fox. Etc etc etc.

I think the coaching aspect is highly overrated but I agree that Andy isn't the problem. The fact is we don't have the Athleticism that the Chiefs have. Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt. You Give any Decent QB those guys and he will put up huge numbers.

People forget that Andy was having an MVP season in 15 before he got hurt but not only that people forget that Andy had a good season in 13 when this team had weapons.  

To me the biggest part of last night wasn't the difference in coaching or QB play. IT was the skilled players and offensive line.

[*bfine32*]

(10-22-2018, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think the coaching aspect is highly overrated but I agree that Andy isn't the problem. The fact is we don't have the Athleticism that the Chiefs have. Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt. You Give any Decent QB those guys and he will put up huge numbers.

People forget that Andy was having an MVP season in 15 before he got hurt but not only that people forget that Andy had a good season in 13 when this team had weapons.  

To me the biggest part of last night wasn't the difference in coaching or QB play. IT was the skilled players and offensive line.

This is literally the least forgotten thing in this forum. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2018, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think the coaching aspect is highly overrated but I agree that Andy isn't the problem. The fact is we don't have the Athleticism that the Chiefs have. Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt. You Give any Decent QB those guys and he will put up huge numbers.

People forget that Andy was having an MVP season in 15 before he got hurt but not only that people forget that Andy had a good season in 13 when this team had weapons.  

To me the biggest part of last night wasn't the difference in coaching or QB play. IT was the skilled players and offensive line.

No they don’t. It’s brought up here ad nauseam.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2018, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think the coaching aspect is highly overrated but I agree that Andy isn't the problem. The fact is we don't have the Athleticism that the Chiefs have. Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt. You Give any Decent QB those guys and he will put up huge numbers.

People forget that Andy was having an MVP season in 15 before he got hurt but not only that people forget that Andy had a good season in 13 when this team had weapons.  

To me the biggest part of last night wasn't the difference in coaching or QB play. IT was the skilled players and offensive line.

.....and why do you think this?  I mean, you saw it right here, last season, with your own team.  You think Zampese and Lazor are on the same plane?  Your logic here would dictate that.......

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-22-2018, 04:11 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: .....and why do you think this?  I mean, you saw it right here, last season, with your own team.  You think Zampese and Lazor are on the same plane?  Your logic here would dictate that.......

Pretty sure the guy you quoted has stated coaching in football is the least important of all the major sports.

I would argue it’s the most important...

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 04:11 PM)Wyche Wrote: .....and why do you think this?  I mean, you saw it right here, last season, with your own team.  You think Zampese and Lazor are on the same plane?  Your logic here would dictate that.......

I think Zampese got a rough deal here in all honesty was used as a scape goat for this offenses failure.  Instead of blaiming the real corporate the front office. 
In 2016 Andy had a good season over 4,000 yards, completed nearly 65% of his passes, 
Threw under 10 interceptions, and had a 7.5  yards per attempt. All would suggest a very good season except for TDs.  
Last season we lose our best two offensive lineman, Eifert was hurt, and Ross didn't pan out either. Those losses we're catastrophic and did more damage to this team than any coaching move could have done. Andy's numbers were significantly worse than the previous two seasons. 
Looking at this years team in the first 14 quarters of the season we scored 114 points with Eifert. The next 14 quarters we have scored 67. 

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 04:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Pretty sure the guy you quoted has stated coaching in football is the least important of all the major sports.

I would argue it’s the most important...

Not true said its overrated in all sports if you quote me at least get it right.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-22-2018, 04:31 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think Zampese got a rough deal here in all honesty was used as a scape goat for this offenses failure.  Instead of blaiming the real corporate the front office. 
In 2016 Andy had a good season over 4,000 yards, completed nearly 65% of his passes, 
Threw under 10 interceptions, and had a 7.5  yards per attempt. All would suggest a very good season except for TDs.  
Last season we lose our best two offensive lineman, Eifert was hurt, and Ross didn't pan out either. Those losses we're catastrophic and did more damage to this team than any coaching move could have done. Andy's numbers were significantly worse than the previous two seasons. 
Looking at this years team in the first 14 quarters of the season we scored 114 points with Eifert. The next 14 quarters we have scored 67. 

Zampese was an average QB coach at best, and a HORRIBLE, absolutely horrible OC.  We didn't score for 2 weeks.  Yes, the line was bad, but it really isn't a whole lot better this season, and it wasn't any better after Lazor took over and righted the ship for sure.  Zampese was just terrible.  I certainly won't argue about the FO, because it was those morons that made him a lifer position coach, then lazily promoted him to a position he had no business being in.

So, if coaching doesn't matter, how do we explain the Fisher/McVay dynamic in LA?  Hell, how about Merv vs LeBeau?  Schemes, personnel evals, adapting to player strength/weakness, exploiting matchups.....etc.....all of that is coaching.  

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think the coaching aspect is highly overrated but I agree that Andy isn't the problem. The fact is we don't have the Athleticism that the Chiefs have. Hill, Watkins, Kelce, and Hunt. You Give any Decent QB those guys and he will put up huge numbers.

People forget that Andy was having an MVP season in 15 before he got hurt but not only that people forget that Andy had a good season in 13 when this team had weapons.  

To me the biggest part of last night wasn't the difference in coaching or QB play. IT was the skilled players and offensive line.

Sorry, I just can't get past that. We've been watching Marv fail in the same situations for 16 years. We've also seen countless new coaches take over rosters that went 4-12 (for example) and lead them to 13-3 type seasons. If anything, coaching is underrated. 

(10-22-2018, 04:31 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think Zampese got a rough deal here in all honesty was used as a scape goat for this offenses failure.  Instead of blaiming the real corporate the front office. 
In 2016 Andy had a good season over 4,000 yards, completed nearly 65% of his passes, 
Threw under 10 interceptions, and had a 7.5  yards per attempt. All would suggest a very good season except for TDs.  
Last season we lose our best two offensive lineman, Eifert was hurt, and Ross didn't pan out either. Those losses we're catastrophic and did more damage to this team than any coaching move could have done. Andy's numbers were significantly worse than the previous two seasons. 
Looking at this years team in the first 14 quarters of the season we scored 114 points with Eifert. The next 14 quarters we have scored 67. 

Zampese was terrible.

Even in 2016, our offense scored 17 or less 7 times.
In 2017, we set franchise records for fewest points/TD's through 2 games. 

He didn't get a raw deal. The players (led by AJ Green) held a mutiny to get him out. He should've never been hired. He was underqualified.

As for Lazor, I'm willing to give him a full season before judging. Even Zampese got that much, and he didn't have Lazor's prior success. I will say this, the run game is much improved, and prior to this week, the passing game looked better as well.

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 04:40 PM)Wyche Wrote: Zampese was an average QB coach at best, and a HORRIBLE, absolutely horrible OC.  We didn't score for 2 weeks.  Yes, the line was bad, but it really isn't a whole lot better this season, and it wasn't any better after Lazor took over and righted the ship for sure.  Zampese was just terrible.  I certainly won't argue about the FO, because it was those morons that made him a lifer position coach, then lazily promoted him to a position he had no business being in.

So, if coaching doesn't matter, how do we explain the Fisher/McVay dynamic in LA?  Hell, how about Merv vs LeBeau?  Schemes, personnel evals, adapting to player strength/weakness, exploiting matchups.....etc.....all of that is coaching.  

Mcvay- the team improved their offensive line and weapons drastically last season. Cooper Kupp, Andrew Whitworth, Sammy Watkins( replaced with Brandin cooks) , and John  Sullivan.  They basically did the exact opposite of what we have done in the past two offseasons.  So if you want to ignore the mass talent that has arrived in LA  and give all the credit to the boy wonder than go ahead. It however doesn't make you any less wrong.

Lazor vs Zampese- I like what Lazor has done I do but let's be honest here. Exept for the second Ravens game we're we scored 31 points against aagood defense. we scored only 21 points total against the Jaguars, Bears, and Vikings. So good Defenses figured us out with Lazor as well.  Also against the Ravens in the first Game Dalton missed a wide open Core that would have been a TD and had two turnovers in the red zone.

Also pointing out I have never said coaching is meaningless but at the same time I would rather have an elite group of players than an elite coach any day of the week.

[YsCascadia]

(10-22-2018, 03:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: I think Bridgewater shredding a knee has more to do with his demise than anything.  Teddy was never known as careless with the ball.

With Bridgewater it is him holding the ball to long and trying to make "magic" happen by having defenders miss.  It wasn't so much him throwing INTs as much as him not just throwing the ball away.  Which did lead to him shredding his knee.

[thillan]

(10-22-2018, 05:28 PM)YsCascadia Wrote: With Bridgewater it is him holding the ball to long and trying to make "magic" happen by having defenders miss.  It wasn't so much him throwing INTs as much as him not just throwing the ball away.  Which did lead to him shredding his knee.

His knee injury was non-contact in practice..

[J24]

(10-22-2018, 05:25 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sorry, I just can't get past that. We've been watching Marv fail in the same situations for 16 years. We've also seen countless new coaches take over rosters that went 4-12 (for example) and lead them to 13-3 type seasons. If anything, coaching is underrated. 


Zampese was terrible.

Even in 2016, our offense scored 17 or less 7 times.
In 2017, we set franchise records for fewest points/TD's through 2 games. 

He didn't get a raw deal. The players (led by AJ Green) held a mutiny to get him out. He should've never been hired. He was underqualified.

As for Lazor, I'm willing to give him a full season before judging. Even Zampese got that much, and he didn't have Lazor's prior success. I will say this, the run game is much improved, and prior to this week, the passing game looked better as well.

1.) The teams have done those transactions also have made major personal moves that have helped there team. Also Marvin has taken a team that had a 4 win season the year prior twice to the playoffs the Next season.  Roster upgrades tend to go hand in hand with rebuilding teams.

2.) Lazor would have had 8 games under 20 as well if it wasn't for the Defense intercepting 4 passes and returning them to the 1 Kirk against Denver and  the 2 yard line by Dennard against the Titans, a TD by Jackson,  an a TD by Dunlap against the Colts. So it's not like we we're over powering teams with our offense last season. By the way that unit was crap and I think Lazor got the best out of them . So I don't really think it was his problem but the Defense did help them get past 17 a couple of times last season.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-22-2018, 05:26 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Mcvay- the team improved their offensive line and weapons drastically last season. Cooper Kupp, Andrew Whitworth, Sammy Watkins( replaced with Brandin cooks) , and John  Sullivan.  They basically did the exact opposite of what we have done in the past two offseasons.  So if you want to ignore the mass talent that has arrived in LA  and give all the credit to the boy wonder than go ahead. It however doesn't make you any less wrong.

Lazor vs Zampese- I like what Lazor has done I do but let's be honest here. Exept for the second Ravens game we're we scored 31 points against aagood defense. we scored only 21 points total against the Jaguars, Bears, and Vikings. So good Defenses figured us out with Lazor as well.  Also against the Ravens in the first Game Dalton missed a wide open Core that would have been a TD and had two turnovers in the red zone.

Also pointing out I have never said coaching is meaningless but at the same time I would rather have an elite group of players than an elite coach any day of the week.

Sorry man, but that isn't enough change to explain going from 4-12 with the 32nd ranked offense (224 points) to 11-5 with the #1 ranked offense (478 points). Watkins was a bust in Buffalo. Sullivan was a backup with the Redskins. Kupp isn't exactly AJ Green. Whit was a nice add, but you don't go from freaking 32nd to 1st (they more than doubled their point total) just by adding Whitworth and 3 decent players. 

The real difference was that Fisher couldn't get the best out of Goff. His system was primitive and predictable. But don't take my word for it. Todd Gurley called it a "middle school offense" during the 2016 season:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/rams-jared-goff-says-hes-living-with-bears-mitch-trubisky-this-offseason/

In the same article, there is a quote from Jordan Howard criticizing the Bears offense in 2017, saying the offense was "basic" and defenses "knew what we were going to do". So out went (defensive minded) John Fox, and in with (offensive minded) Matt Nagy. The Bears mimicked the Rams. Why? Coaching matters. A lot. 

[wolfkaosaun]

(10-22-2018, 05:26 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Mcvay- the team improved their offensive line and weapons drastically last season. Cooper Kupp, Andrew Whitworth, Sammy Watkins( replaced with Brandin cooks) , and John  Sullivan.  They basically did the exact opposite of what we have done in the past two offseasons.  So if you want to ignore the mass talent that has arrived in LA  and give all the credit to the boy wonder than go ahead. It however doesn't make you any less wrong.

Lazor vs Zampese- I like what Lazor has done I do but let's be honest here. Exept for the second Ravens game we're we scored 31 points against aagood defense. we scored only 21 points total against the Jaguars, Bears, and Vikings. So good Defenses figured us out with Lazor as well.  Also against the Ravens in the first Game Dalton missed a wide open Core that would have been a TD and had two turnovers in the red zone.

Also pointing out I have never said coaching is meaningless but at the same time I would rather have an elite group of players than an elite coach any day of the week.

You're gonna sit here and tell me that adding Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods was heralded as adding great talent?
Woods had 12 TDs in 4 years in Buffalo. Never had more than 700 receiving yards until last year.
Watkins had a great year in 2015, but fell of drastically outside of that year.

The Rams had the WORST offense in football in 2015 AND 2016.
Then they rank 10th in the NFL the next year. That doesn't just change in one year unless things change overall. Sure. Players help.
But you really think the Rams are gonna have a top 10 offense under Jeff Fisher with that team?
Because facts would prove otherwise.
The best year they had on offense, they ranked 23rd in the NFL. In 2012.
From 2013-16 they ranked in the bottom five. And again, in case you forgot, were ranked dead last in the NFL for two straight years.

To the second point: The Bengals have had an elite group of players. And guess how many playoff wins they've won with inept coaching?

The following players have been All-Pros (first and second team) from those playoff years from 2011-15:
Geno Atkins (3x), Andre Smith, AJ Green (3x), Vontaze Burfict, Adam Jones, Kevin Huber, Andrew Whitworth (2x), Reggie Nelson

That's eight different players playing at elite levels. Three of them doing it multiple years.

You have a team with AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Adam Jones, Vontze Burfict, Reggie Nelson, Andrew Whitworth, and many others. And you can't win ONE playoff game?
Or beat the Steelers more than three times in those five years?

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-22-2018, 05:55 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: You're gonna sit here and tell me that adding Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods was heralded as adding great talent?
Woods had 12 TDs in 4 years in Buffalo. Never had more than 700 receiving yards until last year.
Watkins had a great year in 2015, but fell of drastically outside of that year.

The Rams had the WORST offense in football in 2015 AND 2016.
Then they rank 10th in the NFL the next year. That doesn't just change in one year unless things change overall. Sure. Players help.
But you really think the Rams are gonna have a top 10 offense under Jeff Fisher with that team?
Because facts would prove otherwise.
The best year they had on offense, they ranked 23rd in the NFL. In 2012.
From 2013-16 they ranked in the bottom five. And again, in case you forgot, were ranked dead last in the NFL for two straight years.

To the second point: The Bengals have had an elite group of players. And guess how many playoff wins they've won with inept coaching?

The following players have been All-Pros (first and second team) from those playoff years from 2011-15:
Geno Atkins (3x), Andre Smith, AJ Green (3x), Vontaze Burfict, Adam Jones, Kevin Huber, Andrew Whitworth (2x), Reggie Nelson

That's eight different players playing at elite levels. Three of them doing it multiple years.

You have a team with AJ Green, Tyler Eifert, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Adam Jones, Vontze Burfict, Reggie Nelson, Andrew Whitworth, and many others. And you can't win ONE playoff game?
Or beat the Steelers more than three times in those five years?

It's amazing how many refuse to admit it's the coaching.