If GM holding Marvin back, then why has Marvin never left to a better Opportunity/GM?

[I_C_DeadPeople]

During the ML regime, he and the team has also been raked over the coals over drafting/signing players with issues and generally having undisciplined players - Odell, Henry, AJ Nicholson (if I recall name), Mizxon, Pacman, Burfict, etc.

It added to how this organization was and is perceived. ML and Mikey are complicit in this regard.

[fredtoast]

(11-28-2018, 04:13 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: During the ML regime, he and the team has also been raked over the coals over drafting/signing players with issues and generally having undisciplined players - Odell, Henry, AJ Nicholson (if I recall name), Mizxon, Pacman, Burfict, etc.

It added to how this organization was and is perceived. ML and Mikey are complicit in this regard.

EVERY team drafts "troubled" players.  The only people who still rip the Bengals for this are the ones who have not been paying attention since 2006.  Look around the league at how many more players from other teams get in trouble.

Remember when people blew a gasket over us drafting Frostee Rucker, yet he ended up being a model citizen.  Same thing with Mixon.

How about all those "red flags" on Baker Mayfield?

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-28-2018, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Since I don't see 26 teams on that list my point clearly went over your head.

I'm sorry, your point was that the Bengals are among the "very best"....no?

(11-24-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  The very best teams make the playoffs the most often.

Ah wait, you did.

I just named 15 other teams to prove that point wrong.
I'm not going to go through 10 more teams because you're literally not listening to anything.

It's almost like you like to ignore facts and grasp at straws.

19 different teams in the conference championship.
25 different teams won a playoff game.
15 of them have as good if not better overall win percentage, and more playoff wins.

Heck, I included teams that didn't even make the Super Bowl and had more losing season than Marvin.

[fredtoast]

(11-28-2018, 08:03 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I'm sorry, your point was that the Bengals are among the "very best"....no?



Ah wait, you did.

I just named 15 other teams to prove that point wrong.
I'm not going to go through 10 more teams because you're literally not listening to anything.

It's almost like you like to ignore facts and grasp at straws.

19 different teams in the conference championship.
25 different teams won a playoff game.
15 of them have as good if not better overall win percentage, and more playoff wins.

Heck, I included teams that didn't even make the Super Bowl and had more losing season than Marvin.

My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

[Whatever]

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

This makes no sense.  You can't say that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite having the worst owner in the league when said owner is the one ultimately responsible for the product on the field.  All of these coaches were ultimately hired by Mikey, so if you're saying they're good to great coaches, you have to give Mikey credit for that by extension.  You have to also give Mikey an insane amount of credit for recognizing the genius of Marvin and not firing him when every other owner in the league would have sent him packing a long time ago.  However, you've also admitted that the Bengals have had great drafts so the basis of your argument seems to be Brown is a terrible owner because he doesn't bring in top shelf free agents even though the Steelers are more successful and don't sign top shelf FA's, either.

You can argue Marvin coaching up bad rosters until you're blue in the face, but if that was true, he would not have the pathetic prime time record he has.  That is a direct result of poor coaching.

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

Nah that was never a point you made with me.

So, wait. Isn't our owner in charge of who our coaches are?
I mean, that's why we still have Marvin.
We've had numerous coaches do well and go off to become head coaches.

Since 2010, the Bengals have had 5 different coaches go on to be head coaches in the NFL.

Now, that's not to say they've all been amazing. Leslie Frazier had one good season before he was fired. Hue Jackson has one of the worst head coaching records of all time now.
Vance Joseph is on the hot seat.
Jay Gruden hasn't won a playoff game.

The only successful coach has been Mike Zimmer.

Now, many coaches are better as coordinators and positional coaches. That's just a fact.

Most of Mike Brown's arguments are he's loyal to bad coaches. And guess what, that's what we're arguing about here.

Remember the Carl Pickens Clause? Or Corey Dillon?
How about Carson Palmer?

Marvin Lewis started something great here. No one is denying that. But he is the Bengals Jim Mora.
He had a .556 winning percentage in New Orleans. Got them to their first 4 playoff appearances.
He even put together a great team in Indy.
They were only .500 during his 4 years there, but still had two playoff appearances. But no wins.

[McC]

(11-28-2018, 10:53 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Nah that was never a point you made with me.

So, wait. Isn't our owner in charge of who our coaches are?
I mean, that's why we still have Marvin.
We've had numerous coaches do well and go off to become head coaches.

Since 2010, the Bengals have had 5 different coaches go on to be head coaches in the NFL.

Now, that's not to say they've all been amazing. Leslie Frazier had one good season before he was fired. Hue Jackson has one of the worst head coaching records of all time now.
Vance Joseph is on the hot seat.
Jay Gruden hasn't won a playoff game.

The only successful coach has been Mike Zimmer.

Now, many coaches are better as coordinators and positional coaches. That's just a fact.

Most of Mike Brown's arguments are he's loyal to bad coaches. And guess what, that's what we're arguing about here.

Remember the Carl Pickens Clause? Or Corey Dillon?
How about Carson Palmer?

Marvin Lewis started something great here. No one is denying that. But he is the Bengals Jim Mora.
He had a .556 winning percentage in New Orleans. Got them to their first 4 playoff appearances.
He even put together a great team in Indy.
They were only .500 during his 4 years there, but still had two playoff appearances. But no wins.

People usually find their level.  Marvin has already bumped his head on his ceiling and he's headed back floorward.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

Among ? 

You mean trying to be relevant and failing, miserably.

The Marvin Lewis led Bengals have a record of 27-69-2 against playoff bound teams from 2003-2017 including the actual playoff losses. I threw out two games against playoff teams. The 2004 win over the Eagles the last game of the season and they were assured a spot and resting starters. And our 2009 loss to the Jets at the end because we were resting starters.

27 wins 69 losses 2 ties

We take beat downs from playoff teams in a given season on a regular basis. We're not a player at the big boys table Fred. We're a hanger on, an after thought, an asterisk on the season, a name typed in on the list of playoff losers, not taken seriously because we always fold.

We're not considered AMONG anything except the list of wannabe's.

[iowahwky4cincy]

(11-23-2018, 02:28 PM)depthchart Wrote: 16 years as Bengals Head Coach. (2003-2018) & signed thru 2019 would make it 17 years.

Assuming (as some do) that Marvin is a victim at every turn of his GM Mike Brown and that GM is holding back the true Greatness of Marvin as a Head Coach (at every turn), then it seems logical that someone possessing true Greatness would want to seek Greener Pastures somewhere else to fully allow his held back Greatness to finally shine through.

Why stay 16 to 17 years in this "held back", "victim of his GM" position ?

Why not free himself, find a better fit/GM and spread those wings and SOAR ?

I remember when Bill Belichick was given the job as Jets Head Coach in 1999 then Resigned a day later. Not long after that he became the Patriots Head Coach and the rest is history. He probably didn't feel that the Jets job offered him the best path to success. He sought out what was to him "greener pastures" so to speak.

A somewhat similar event occurred with Josh McDaniels when he was announced as the Colts Head Coach in early 2018 only to withdraw from that position on the same day to stay with the Patriots as an Offensive Co-ordinator.

Tom Coughlin would not come to Cincinnati due to wanting more of a say in GM type decisions involving the Roster.

Marvin himself is said to have held up Contract negotiations in order to gain more influence regarding Coaches he can hire and GM type decisions involving the Roster.

Did Marvin get all that he asked for in these areas in terms of gaining more Power from the GM ? He must have gotten enough of what he asked for to be satisfied with, causing him to stay ?

If at any point, Marvin felt that he did not have enough influence to avoid having his GM "hold back" the Greatness that Marvin felt he would achieve if only he had a better GM; then WHY did he not put himself on the Open Coaching Market at some point in the last 16 years ?

Get multiple Teams to Bid for his services and find that right fit. Find that right Organization and GM ?

Stop being the "held back" Victim and Self Determine his own Destiny ?

Unshackle his Greatness.

To those who blame Mike Brown at every turn for Marvin being "held back" by his GM that only hands Marvin so called "talent lacking" teams, I say it was Marvin himself that CHOSE to stay with this GM for all of these years.

But Why ?

Why has he stayed ?

Why did he not Free himself at some point and let those "greener pasture" offers roll in for better Head Coaching jobs with a better GM ?

Could it be that Marvin actually holds more influence over the decisions his GM makes than some suggest ?

Not so many "better" offers rolling in from "greener pasture" teams ?

Some other reason ? 

Marvin's time here has passed, but an equally-if not more-important move would be to fire Paul Brown's kid. Oh well...he's in his 80s so we may not have to. 

BTW....Baker Mayfield is a full on d-bag....whether he believes it or not. 
GO STRIPES!!!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2018, 02:02 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Among ? 

You mean trying to be relevant and failing, miserably.

The Marvin Lewis led Bengals have a record of 27-69-2 against playoff bound teams from 2003-2017 including the actual playoff losses. I threw out two games against playoff teams. The 2004 win over the Eagles the last game of the season and they were assured a spot and resting starters. And our 2009 loss to the Jets at the end because we were resting starters.

27 wins 69 losses 2 ties

We take beat downs from playoff teams in a given season on a regular basis. We're not a player at the big boys table Fred. We're a hanger on, an after thought, an asterisk on the season, a name typed in on the list of playoff losers, not taken seriously because we always fold.

We're not considered AMONG anything except the list of wannabe's.

Well said, man. Well said.

[fredtoast]

(11-28-2018, 10:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: This makes no sense.  You can't say that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite having the worst owner in the league when said owner is the one ultimately responsible for the product on the field.

It makes perfect sense.

Sorry if you can't grasp the concept but Tom Coughlin did.  A good coach can't win with a bad owner.

[fredtoast]

(11-24-2018, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is exactly what I have been saying.

I think Marvin is much better than average because he has better than average results despite being handicapped by the worst owner in the league.

(11-27-2018, 01:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  Not at all.  I am just saying that Mike Browns refusal to sign free agents to fill crucial holes in our lineup has held Marvin back.

We have had talent, but when we come close Mike refuses to take the extra step needed to build a true contender.

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

(11-28-2018, 10:53 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Nah that was never a point you made with me.

Then you just need to learn how to read.

[Whatever]

(11-29-2018, 10:41 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It makes perfect sense.

Sorry if you can't grasp the concept but Tom Coughlin did.  A good coach can't win with a bad owner.

Lol, Coughlin's hang up was that he wanted both the HC and GM jobs, which he had in Jacksonville.  Nobody was willing to give him that, which is why he didn't coach for anybody that year.  After being out of football for a year, then he he dropped the GM title demands.

[wolfkaosaun]

(11-29-2018, 10:52 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then you just need to learn how to read.

2 of the 3 quotes you used were not to me.
Even though I distinctly said those points weren't made to me.

(11-24-2018, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  The very best teams make the playoffs the most often.

(11-26-2018, 11:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Which team was more successful over the previous 15 years

91-148-1..... .381%..... 2 winning seasons..... 11 losing seasons..... 1 playoff win
125-112-3... .527%..... 7 winning seasons.....  5 losing seasons..... 0 playoff wins

(11-28-2018, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Since I don't see 26 teams on that list my point clearly went over your head.

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My point has been that the Bengals have been among the better teams in the league despite being handicapped by having the worst owner in the league.  

To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

Huh. What do you know. You really only did bring up the owner once with me.

So back on topic. Are you actually gonna debate ANY of the points I brought up?

The 19 different teams in a conference championship?
Or when you brought up the Rams throughout 16 years, but then I countered with 15 other teams and asked you to pick the more successful franchise among the 16, yet you ignored that. I even included a team with a losing record for you! Tried to help you out.
Maybe could even argue against how I said Marvin Lewis is awful in the second half of the playoffs? I mean, granted, arguing against getting shut out in the second half of 4 of the 7 games, and averaging 4 points per second half in the playoffs would be pretty stupid to do.
Didn't even argue once I responded to your Mike Brown comment.

[fredtoast]

(11-30-2018, 06:45 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: So back on topic. Are you actually gonna debate ANY of the points I brought up?

No.  I'll admit there are 15 teams that have been more successful than the Bengals during Marvin's tenure.

If Mike Brown is the worst owner in the league that means Marvin has performed pretty well to be better than half of the teams in the league working under that type of handicap.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-26-2018, 05:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Would you agree that Mike Brown's free agent policy hurts the Bengals chances of winning playoff games and championships?

It didn't hurt their chances of making the playoffs 5 straight years, or winning games against other winning teams during the regular season. So it shouldn't have such a drastic impact during the playoffs.

You can't talk about how "successful" the Bengals have been during the regular season, then find excuses why they only lose in the playoffs.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-27-2018, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What the hell does Coughlin know about what Coughlin could do.

Doesn't he know that one of the most popular ways to prove a point around here is to make up something out of thin air and claim it is a fact?  

So, it's not possible to interview and find out the structure and operations of a franchise and then decided...since you've been in the NFL 8 years or so and taken an expansion franchise to 2 conference championship games...that the way the Bengals do business is not conducive to winning?

The answer is; of course it is.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-28-2018, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To me that indicates that our coaches are not among the worst in the league.

If you've had 15 seasons and you're zero for 7 in playoff chances, where do you fall as a head coach? Go ahead and factor in prime time games and division record.

1. Great
2. Good
3. Above average
4. Average
5. Below average
6. Bad
7. Among the worst

[*ochocincos*]

(11-26-2018, 09:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Hardy, James, Thornton, Odom, Coles, Bryant and Glenn were more like "tier B" free agents.

TO and Deltha were only tier C due to attitude questions, but were tier B based on skill level.

O'Neal was a good player in Denver, and tbh Nelson was pretty good in Jacksonville as well.

We definitely could've done better with free agency, but I stand by "if the team is good enough to win divisions, they're good enough to win playoff games".

Nelson was definitely good in JAX until they tried him at CB. His rookie year at FS he had 5 ints and 11 PDs.


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[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2018, 11:30 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If you've had 15 seasons and you're zero for 7 in playoff chances, where do you fall as a head coach? Go ahead and factor in prime time games and division record.

1. Great
2. Good
3. Above average
4. Average
5. Below average
6. Bad
7. Among the worst

I’d put Marvin in the 3-4 range. Winning record many seasons, many playoff appearances, can’t seem to beat the really good contenders when it matters. Still better than the perennial bottom feeders who always have losing records.


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