I expect the coaching changes to give Dalton a new lease on his Bengals life

[BengalChris]

(01-31-2019, 08:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals won in spite of Boomer.  In '88 they beat Seattle when Boomer was 7-19 for 108 yards 0 tds and 2 fumbles.

There is really nothing that can be said to defend Andy's playoff performances, but it is only 4 games.  There are plenty of examples of QBs who struggled for a few games in the post season and then played great.  To me the fact that he ould not win a playoff game in the first 4 seasons of his career does not mean he can never win one.

All true.

Hopefully he can get a win in a playoff game this year, then he gets to have another playoff game. Two playoff wins would be awesome.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-31-2019, 07:19 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't feel like anything you said earlier was directed at me. Some times I get the "you are hating on Andy" comments, but it's generally when I point out the 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in 4 playoff games.

If the new staff gets things cleaned up and Andy puts together good "big" games then I will certainly give him his due. You can hold me to that.

I also feel Marvin was a problem come the post season.

I hope Dalton does well this season. I hope Bengals do well. I do believe this will be his chance to shine. But it does need to materialize.

I don't think you'll find anyone who would disagree with this statement. If Dalton gets a chance with Taylor, I expect better on the big stage.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2019, 07:19 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't feel like anything you said earlier was directed at me. Some times I get the "you are hating on Andy" comments, but it's generally when I point out the 1 TD, 6 INTs and 4 FUMs in 4 playoff games.

If the new staff gets things cleaned up and Andy puts together good "big" games then I will certainly give him his due. You can hold me to that.

I also feel Marvin was a problem come the post season.

I hope Dalton does well this season. I hope Bengals do well. I do believe this will be his chance to shine. But it does need to materialize.

It certainly does need to materialize, no doubt.  I guess a lot of the hate/homer stuff still carries over from the old boards.  To a lesser extent, there is still some of that "he's trash" BS that was there, but people don't often nitpick every incompletion like they did there.  It was exhausting.

The guy is a solid NFL caliber QB to me, and he and his mates need to get it together on the big stage.  Andy has since conquered some of the prime time demons, and in games against rivals.  The bad games aren't nearly as common as they were early on.  Take this last season, for example, he and AJ were simply a raging inferno against the Ravens, but their defensive mates nearly dropped the ball and cost us that game.  That's a hallmark of Lewis' tenure.  Never seemed to have all three phases clicking at the same time....save for a game here and there.  

The biggest thing about him is a false narrative.  It's said that he needs elite weapons around him to win.  I think 2014 dispels that myth.  What he NEEDS is good protection.  I even read a current scouting report about him that admitted that when he is protected well, he can pick any defense in the NFL apart.  To me, that is the key with him, put a good line in front of him.  It was the same with Palmer. I hope that disconnect from the FO is solved as well.

[*jason*]

(02-01-2019, 04:30 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: It certainly does need to materialize, no doubt.  I guess a lot of the hate/homer stuff still carries over from the old boards.  To a lesser extent, there is still some of that "he's trash" BS that was there, but people don't often nitpick every incompletion like they did there.  It was exhausting.

The guy is a solid NFL caliber QB to me, and he and his mates need to get it together on the big stage.  Andy has since conquered some of the prime time demons, and in games against rivals.  The bad games aren't nearly as common as they were early on.  Take this last season, for example, he and AJ were simply a raging inferno against the Ravens, but their defensive mates nearly dropped the ball and cost us that game.  That's a hallmark of Lewis' tenure.  Never seemed to have all three phases clicking at the same time....save for a game here and there.  

The biggest thing about him is a false narrative.  It's said that he needs elite weapons around him to win.  I think 2014 dispels that myth.  What he NEEDS is good protection.  I even read a current scouting report about him that admitted that when he is protected well, he can pick any defense in the NFL apart.  To me, that is the key with him, put a good line in front of him.  It was the same with Palmer. I hope that disconnect from the FO is solved as well.

In Marvin's defense... The refs practically handed the Ravens two TDs in that particular game. It was the only game I went to last year... In the last coupla years actually... I was in the 3rd level and could see what a blatantly shit call the one PI in the end zone was. I forget what led to the other, but a raging blowout all of the sudden turned into a game... The conspiracy buffs on here were in full force the next day...

Doesn't mean you're wrong about Marvin's track record in the 3rd quarter though.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-01-2019, 05:04 PM)jason Wrote: In Marvin's defense... The refs practically handed the Ravens two TDs in that particular game. It was the only game I went to last year... In the last coupla years actually... I was in the 3rd level and could see what a blatantly shit call the one PI in the end zone was. I forget what led to the other, but a raging blowout all of the sudden turned into a game... The conspiracy buffs on here were in full force the next day...

Doesn't mean you're wrong about Marvin's track record in the 3rd quarter though.

Honestly, I had forgotten about that.  Fair point.

[wolverine515151]

Dalton is below average so get over it and move on about it.  

1) His combined qb ratings give him 1 good year, 4 average, and 3 bad seasons. If you count playoff games as worth two regular season games he's had 1 good season and 7 bad ones.

2) Trading Dalton for a second rounder would address several needs. It would clear close to 17 million from the cap. The Bengals could draft a second round DE, get a good right tackle for 10 million and a good cover linebacker for 7 million.

3) Waiting to trade Dalton in  a couple years will mean you get zero trade value out of him. Nobody wants a 34 year old qb whose below average and can't get it done in the playoffs. You wouldn't even get a 7th rounder for him. 

At the very least the Bengals should draft a first round qb and give Dalton some competition; Don't just keep giving him the starting job. He's never had to compete for his job even once.

 The Bengals just keep handing him the job with no competition and he knows he doesn't have to step up his game because he has no threat from anyone to take his job. Competition produces success. 

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:26 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Dalton is below average so get over it and move on about it.  

1) His combined qb ratings give him 1 good year, 4 average, and 3 bad seasons. If you count playoff games as worth two regular season games he's had 1 good season and 7 bad ones.

2) Trading Dalton for a second rounder would address several needs. It would clear close to 17 million from the cap. The Bengals could draft a second round DE, get a good right tackle for 10 million and a good cover linebacker for 7 million.

3) Waiting to trade Dalton in  a couple years will mean you get zero trade value out of him. Nobody wants a 34 year old qb whose below average and can't get it done in the playoffs. You wouldn't even get a 7th rounder for him. 

At the very least the Bengals should draft a first round qb and give Dalton some competition; Don't just keep giving him the starting job. He's never had to compete for his job even once.

 The Bengals just keep handing him the job with no competition and he knows he doesn't have to step up his game because he has no threat from anyone to take his job. Competition produces success. 

You no what cracks me up?  People who talk about how bad a QB Dalton is and then claim we can get a second round pick in trade for him. 

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How the hell will we get a second rounder in trade for a QB who has had only one good season and 7 bad ones?

There's always desperate teams that will overvalue a qb, look at the Palmer deal.

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:26 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote:  The Bengals just keep handing him the job with no competition and he knows he doesn't have to step up his game because he has no threat from anyone to take his job. Competition produces success. 

If competition produces success then you should be able to list a few times that has happened, right?

So when was the last time a QB struggled until the team used a high draft pick on another QB and then suddenly got better?

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If competition produces success then you should be able to list a few times that has happened, right?

So when was the last time a QB struggled until the team used a high draft pick on another QB and then suddenly got better?

Patrick Mahomes was drafted to eventually take over for Alex Smith. Aaron Rogers was drafted to take over for Brett Favre. There's many examples that can be used. 

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You no what cracks me up?  People who talk about how bad a QB Dalton is and then claim we can get a second round pick in trade for him. 

What cracks me up how you think there isn't a desperate team out there who would pull off the trade. 

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:36 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: There's always desperate teams that will overvalue a qb, look at the Palmer deal.

Are you saying Palmer was not a good QB?

In 2015 he ranked 2nd in passing tds, 3rd in passer rating, and 4th in yards.

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:42 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Patrick Mahomes was drafted to eventually take over for Alex Smith. Aaron Rogers was drafted to take over for Brett Favre. There's many examples that can be used. 

Brett Favre got worse after they drafted Rodgers, not better.  His passer rating dropped al the way down into the 70's the first two seasons after Aaron was drafted.

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:44 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: What cracks me up how you think there isn't a desperate team out there who would pull off the trade. 

Why would they be desperate.  Isn't it simple to replace a QB like Dalton through the draft?  That is what you are suggesting we do, right?  If that is so easy why would any team be desperate?

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Brett Favre got worse after they drafted Rodgers, not better.  His passer rating dropped al the way down into the 70's the first two seasons after Aaron was drafted.

Drafting a qb wouldn't be to make Dalton better, it would be done to eventually replace him with a better qb. If it makes Dalton worse who cares, then we just have an easy decision to trade or cut him him the following year and go with the first round qb.  

If it makes him better then we have two starting qb's which is a good thing to have. 

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:46 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: He wasn't good enough to get a first and second round draft pick. 

Sure he was.  Teams have been known to give up multiple first round picks just to draft an untested rookie.  Palmer was a bargain at just one first and one second.

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why would they be desperate.  Isn't it simple to replace a QB like Dalton through the draft?  That is what you are suggesting we do, right?  If that is so easy why would any team be desperate?

They could want to win now with a player they think is at least serviceable then wait a couple years for a qb they draft to become a starter. Most qb's need a couple years before they're starting material. 

They could have a lot of pieces on their team so that a serviceable qb qould give them a chance to win. 

The Bengals have several holes that need to be addressed. A serviceable qb for us isn't going to be enough. We need to fill glaring holes on the offensive line and defense. 

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:51 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Drafting a qb wouldn't be to make Dalton better, 

Then why did you say this?

(02-01-2019, 06:26 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote:  

At the very least the Bengals should draft a first round qb and give Dalton some competition; Don't just keep giving him the starting job. He's never had to compete for his job even once.

 The Bengals just keep handing him the job with no competition and he knows he doesn't have to step up his game because he has no threat from anyone to take his job. Competition produces success. 

[wolverine515151]

(02-01-2019, 06:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sure he was.  Teams have been known to give up multiple first round picks just to draft an untested rookie.  Palmer was a bargain at just one first and one second.

That's your opinion, not mine and not most experts. If that was true then why did almost everyone think we pulled off a heist when we traded a disgruntled Palmer, who had a previous serious injury and was on the wrong side of 30. He had come off a fairly average season and he was disgruntled and wanted out. 

We completely pulled a fast one with Hue Jackson that no other team would ever have done with us. 

[fredtoast]

(02-01-2019, 06:58 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: They could want to win now with a player they think is at least serviceable then wait a couple years for a qb they draft to become a starter. Most qb's need a couple years before they're starting material. 

If they could win with Dalton then why would they waste a draft pick on another QB?