With Green/Atkins/Dalton's Window Closing......

[HuDey]

(01-19-2019, 07:06 PM)McC Wrote: Ah yes.  Starting over.  Otherwise known as the ten year plan.

Maybe so, but how many more years should we ride the horses that we have until we start the “ten year plan”?. Aren’t we creeping up on ten years with the current group anyway?

[McC]

(01-19-2019, 07:53 PM)HuDey Wrote: Maybe so, but how many more years should we ride the horses that we have until we start the “ten year plan”?. Aren’t we creeping up on ten years with the current group anyway?

I just can't get on board with tearing it all down.

And we aren't even creeping up on one year with the horses we have with someone new at the reins.  I don't know what he'll want to do but I can't imagine starting from scratch is in his plans.  He probably will want to be able to keep his job. 

When is the last time a coach who was there at the start of a rebuild was there when the rebuild was completed?

[HuDey]

(01-19-2019, 08:15 PM)McC Wrote: I just can't get on board with tearing it all down.

And we aren't even creeping up on one year with the horses we have with someone new at the reins.  I don't know what he'll want to do but I can't imagine starting from scratch is in his plans.  He probably will want to be able to keep his job. 

When is the last time a coach who was there at the start of a rebuild was there when the rebuild was completed?

Understandable. I am at the other end of the spectrum. I feel that changes in on-field leadership are very important in addition to the changes in coaching in order for the Bengals to have a real shot at becoming something other than what they have been. It may be a painful process. It may fail miserably. I am of the opinion that it is going to get worse before it gets better regardless of whether or not we retain key pieces from the Marvin era.

[*Nately120*]

The biggest change that comes with replacing dumbass Marvin with an offensive genius is that we can't gripe about the moves or decisions he makes.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-19-2019, 02:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I think AJ Green and Atkins are still playing at an elite level.  The problem is we need a QB that matches them and we don't have it.

First you just dont fall into elite, that is why it is called ellte we. Need Andy to stay healthy and team and play st 2015 level and hope new coach and make the magic happen in playoffs

[I_C_DeadPeople]

The League is built in a way any team can rebuild in 1 or 2 years. Hawks did it. You have to draft well though

[THE PISTONS]

(01-19-2019, 11:18 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: The League is built in a way any team can rebuild in 1 or 2 years. Hawks did it. You have to draft well though

Draft well AND we need to sign a couple quality free agents.

We have about 5 positions where we had bad players starting. We need to upgrade those spots PERIOD.

If we do that, and Green and Dalton and a bunch of the other guys stay healthy...we can have a big swing in wins.

That said, IF we decide to draft a QB in the 1st Round...then we're likely looking at 2-3 years.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(01-19-2019, 01:30 PM)HuDey Wrote: In my opinion it would be a waste of time and resources to try to gear up for a Super Bowl run within the next two years. Doing so would only result in failure and delay the inevitable and much needed reboot. There are too many holes to fill, and as many have stated, there is no guarantee that players drafted to fill those holes will pan out. Also what difference makers are even available in FA? Would they come to play here even if we gave them a serious offer?

The rebuild is coming and I would rather start it sooner rather than continue to watch our mediocre QB behind our lousy O-line try to keep up with the points given up by our lousy defense.

Football has shown time and time again that a team can go from worst to first. I honestly believe the Bengals can be very successful this season if they improve their offensive line. Yes, they need a new RT and a better RG and it's easier said than done, but, it's not impossible. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-19-2019, 02:30 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I think AJ Green and Atkins are still playing at an elite level.  The problem is we need a QB that matches them and we don't have it.

This might get a lot of hate... but is he? Really? Here are his rankings the last 5 years:

Receptions / Yards / Rec TDs
2014: t-34th (2 way tie) / 20th / t-29th (17 way tie)
2015: 14th / 8th / t-10th (4 way tie)
2016: t-42nd (3 way tie) / 28th / t-48th (37 way tie)
2017: 16th / 12th / t-8th (11 way tie)
2018: 76th / 51st / t-24th (16 way tie)


The last 5 years averaged out, he's produced a 68 / 1,015 / 7 line. That's good, but nowhere near elite. It actually looks worse if I cut it to a more recent 3 year sample (62 / 912 / 6).

The last 5 years averaged for...
Antonio Brown: 115 / 1,529 / 12
Julio Jones: 105 / 1,599 / 6
DeAndre Hopkins: 95 / 1,327 / 9
Mike Evans: 79 / 1,221 / 8
TY Hilton: 75 / 1,231 / 6

Michael Thomas: 107 / 1,262 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
Tyreek Hill: 74 / 1,085 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
JuJu SS: 85 / 1,172 / 7 (only been in the league for 2 years, so career average rather than 5 years)



- - - - - - -

I'm sure that there's more guys, but I feel that's sufficient to prove my point. AJ Green hasn't been elite for at least half a decade, if ever. His highest yardage year he was 5th in the league. He has never been a 1st Team All-Pro, and only 2nd Team twice ('12 and '13, or 6 and 7 years ago.)

If you look at his last 5 years, the player he is actually pretty darn close to is Brandin Cooks...
Brandin Cooks: 72 / 1,029 / 6
AJ Green: 68 / 1,015 / 7


He'd probably have better numbers if he were more healthy, but the guy is heading into his age 31 season and has been hurt 3 out of the last 5 years and more seriously 2 out of the last 3. Elite Players have to play, otherwise they'd just be Elite Street Clothser, like Eifert.

[CornerBlitz]

(01-20-2019, 05:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This might get a lot of hate... but is he? Really? Here are his rankings the last 5 years:

Receptions / Yards / Rec TDs
2014: t-34th (2 way tie) / 20th / t-29th (17 way tie)
2015: 14th / 8th / t-10th (4 way tie)
2016: t-42nd (3 way tie) / 28th / t-48th (37 way tie)
2017: 16th / 12th / t-8th (11 way tie)
2018: 76th / 51st / t-24th (16 way tie)


The last 5 years averaged out, he's produced a 68 / 1,015 / 7 line. That's good, but nowhere near elite. It actually looks worse if I cut it to a more recent 3 year sample (62 / 912 / 6).

The last 5 years averaged for...
Antonio Brown: 115 / 1,529 / 12
Julio Jones: 105 / 1,599 / 6
DeAndre Hopkins: 95 / 1,327 / 9
Mike Evans: 79 / 1,221 / 8
TY Hilton: 75 / 1,231 / 6

Michael Thomas: 107 / 1,262 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
Tyreek Hill: 74 / 1,085 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
JuJu SS: 85 / 1,172 / 7 (only been in the league for 2 years, so career average rather than 5 years)



- - - - - - -

I'm sure that there's more guys, but I feel that's sufficient to prove my point. AJ Green hasn't been elite for at least half a decade, if ever. His highest yardage year he was 5th in the league. He has never been a 1st Team All-Pro, and only 2nd Team twice ('12 and '13, or 6 and 7 years ago.)

If you look at his last 5 years, the player he is actually pretty darn close to is Brandin Cooks...
Brandin Cooks: 72 / 1,029 / 6
AJ Green: 68 / 1,015 / 7


He'd probably have better numbers if he were more healthy, but the guy is heading into his age 31 season and has been hurt 3 out of the last 5 years and more seriously 2 out of the last 3. Elite Players have to play, otherwise they'd just be Elite Street Clothser, like Eifert.

He's been hurt.  If you want to knock him for that so be it but when he's healthy, he's elite. Ask any GM or head coach out there. 

[BengalsRocker]

(01-20-2019, 12:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: He's been hurt.  If you want to knock him for that so be it but when he's healthy, he's elite. Ask any GM or head coach out there. 

He could easily be a #1 WR on any team in the top half of the league tomorrow.

That says something.

If not currently elite he has the skills to be.

People aren't blind to that.

ESPN would blow up if he were to go to another team.

Especially when he plays for a team that most considered hamstrung by bad ownership, coaching, O-line, QB, just insert whatever else.

The injuries will get mentioned, but not de-value him in the press.

[Catmandude123]

(01-20-2019, 05:31 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This might get a lot of hate... but is he? Really? Here are his rankings the last 5 years:

Receptions / Yards / Rec TDs
2014: t-34th (2 way tie) / 20th / t-29th (17 way tie)
2015: 14th / 8th / t-10th (4 way tie)
2016: t-42nd (3 way tie) / 28th / t-48th (37 way tie)
2017: 16th / 12th / t-8th (11 way tie)
2018: 76th / 51st / t-24th (16 way tie)


The last 5 years averaged out, he's produced a 68 / 1,015 / 7 line. That's good, but nowhere near elite. It actually looks worse if I cut it to a more recent 3 year sample (62 / 912 / 6).

The last 5 years averaged for...
Antonio Brown: 115 / 1,529 / 12
Julio Jones: 105 / 1,599 / 6
DeAndre Hopkins: 95 / 1,327 / 9
Mike Evans: 79 / 1,221 / 8
TY Hilton: 75 / 1,231 / 6

Michael Thomas: 107 / 1,262 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
Tyreek Hill: 74 / 1,085 / 8  (only been in the league for 3 years, so career average rather than 5 years)
JuJu SS: 85 / 1,172 / 7 (only been in the league for 2 years, so career average rather than 5 years)



- - - - - - -

I'm sure that there's more guys, but I feel that's sufficient to prove my point. AJ Green hasn't been elite for at least half a decade, if ever. His highest yardage year he was 5th in the league. He has never been a 1st Team All-Pro, and only 2nd Team twice ('12 and '13, or 6 and 7 years ago.)

If you look at his last 5 years, the player he is actually pretty darn close to is Brandin Cooks...
Brandin Cooks: 72 / 1,029 / 6
AJ Green: 68 / 1,015 / 7


He'd probably have better numbers if he were more healthy, but the guy is heading into his age 31 season and has been hurt 3 out of the last 5 years and more seriously 2 out of the last 3. Elite Players have to play, otherwise they'd just be Elite Street Clothser, like Eifert.

You have to take into account who is throwing him the ball. If he had BB , Brady or Breese throwing to him he would have been all decade first string. Look at AB's stats when BB isn't in the game. Mediocre at best.

[Shake n Blake]

I'd prefer to see us go "all-in" to get this team back to the playoffs. Dalton/Green/Atkins/Dunlap deserve that. Plus it'd be interesting to see them in a non-Marvin coached playoff game.

Draft a tackle 11th overall, go all-in on free agency to get help for the o-line and LB's. Dump Tez and MJ to make room if need be. We need reliable fresh talent injected at those spots.

I'd like to see a QB mixed in somewhere in the mid rounds. Now if we don't make the playoffs in 2019, then next year is time to rebuild and take a QB in round 1.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-20-2019, 02:14 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: You have to take into account who is throwing him the ball. If he had BB , Brady or Breese throwing to him he would have been all decade first string. Look at AB's stats when BB isn't in the game. Mediocre at best.

What about Nuke Hopkins and Mike Evans? Who have their QB's been?

Imagine if Ben were their QB...they'd be having 2500 yard seasons, easily. 

[Catmandude123]

The offense should be good. Draft or sign a RT. Find a replacement or coach up Ross. Resign Eifert and Kroft or Uzomah. Price should improve. Mixon will be a beast when line improves which will open up the passing game. The defense is a different story. They really need two linebackers and a DE who can bring pressure. This will help the DBs immensely. Throwing in the towel at this point is not a smart move imo. While people like to think of the great value of our vets, reality is other teams would have to be one player away to give up too much for a player who won't be around much longer. I believe we will be competitive in our division and these young players will be better by the postseason next year. The key is keeping healthy all year. Doesn't matter who is on the roster if they cant stay on the field.

[*jason*]

(01-20-2019, 02:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: What about Nuke Hopkins and Mike Evans? Who have their QB's been?

Imagine if Ben were their QB...they'd be having 2500 yard seasons, easily. 

Deshaun Watson's a fine QB... I do seem to remember Brock Osweiller turning Hopkins into a non factor that one year. But I guess in his defense, he made CJ Fedorawitz (or whatever his name was) a star. I don't remember who his QB was when he broke out.

[*jason*]

(01-19-2019, 08:15 PM)McC Wrote: I just can't get on board with tearing it all down.

And we aren't even creeping up on one year with the horses we have with someone new at the reins.  I don't know what he'll want to do but I can't imagine starting from scratch is in his plans.  He probably will want to be able to keep his job. 

When is the last time a coach who was there at the start of a rebuild was there when the rebuild was completed?

Marvin Lewis was the last guy I believe...

[BengalChris]

(01-20-2019, 12:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: He's been hurt.  If you want to knock him for that so be it but when he's healthy, he's elite. Ask any GM or head coach out there. 

Not to mention that Dalton's game declines noticeably when Green is out.

[jfkbengals]

(01-19-2019, 02:08 PM)McC Wrote: I agree with basically none of this.

I second that.

Fix the oline and lb corp and we can compete with anyone...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-20-2019, 05:39 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Not to mention that Dalton's game declines noticeably when Green is out.

Incoming stat about how good Dalton is without AJ on Sunday’s that have an even number date, and the temperature is between 41 and 52 degrees out...