Bengals land G- John Miller

[THE PISTONS]

(03-16-2019, 01:51 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’m not saying that they can’t play. I concede that the Ravens lost some talent. They’re not afraid to sign free agents though, they’re probably not done. The Bengals either fear or are to cheap to sign anyone regarded higher than mediocre. Let’s revisit when Free Agency ends.

They likely have more young depth too although I didn't study their roster.

[OSUfan]

Nice move by the franchise to try and sure up a trouble position.

[Gobills123]

(03-16-2019, 02:46 AM)Synric Wrote: Welcome to The Bengals Board man. I wasnt trying to give you a hard time if you took it that way.

I was just showing a legitimate stat that correlates with how long a QB holds onto a football. Time to Throw measures the average time it takes for a QB from the snap to release. 

Because we are discussing offensive linemen that stat effects their pass protection not the other way around. Since you mentioned Dalton he had one of the worst lines in the NFL and his time to throw was 2.61 seconds which was 5th lowest meaning he got the ball out of his hands very quickly. It also kept his sack stats down even though the line gave up a ton of pressures. Josh Allen held on to the football it's a fact 3.22 seconds is high.

These are Next Gen Stats. https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw
One of the cute blondes shows them on the NFL network. 

I just happened upon this and it reminded me of this convo (sorry as its OT) but it backed up the context point. 

 "Allen individually was pressured at the league’s second-highest clip (43.4%) behind only Deshaun Watson (44.9%)."

Maybe that held on to the ball stat was inflated by the fact he was often running for his life. It is tough to just isolate 1 stat with no context and act as its a definite. That said, it may be sinilar to how some folks like comp% as a gauge of accuracy and others believe it has very little to do w how accurate a qb is. Fun stuff to debate though!

[Joelist]

You can also make the argument that he was pressured more because he held on to the ball too long.

[XenoMorph]

(03-20-2019, 11:07 AM)Gobills123 Wrote: I just happened upon this and it reminded me of this convo (sorry as its OT) but it backed up the context point. 

 "Allen individually was pressured at the league’s second-highest clip (43.4%) behind only Deshaun Watson (44.9%)."

Maybe that held on to the ball stat was inflated by the fact he was often running for his life. It is tough to just isolate 1 stat with no context and act as its a definite. That said, it may be sinilar to how some folks like comp% as a gauge of accuracy and others believe it has very little to do w how accurate a qb is. Fun stuff to debate though!

john miller cant block everyone on defense by himself...  They do have Bodine remember

[XenoMorph]

(03-16-2019, 01:51 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’m not saying that they can’t play. I concede that the Ravens lost some talent. They’re not afraid to sign free agents though, they’re probably not done. The Bengals either fear or are to cheap to sign anyone regarded higher than mediocre. Let’s revisit when Free Agency ends.

Bengals need more than 1 guy.... Go blow all your money on 1 Free Agent (we don't have nearly as much as some other teams this offseason)  and leave the rest of them holes wide open...  Or fill as many holes as you can with mid teir guys and draft potential upgrade/replacements.

[Gobills123]

(03-20-2019, 06:15 PM)Joelist Wrote: You can also make the argument that he was pressured more because he held on to the ball too long.

You certianly could, but either way - its built on context and why that context is important. 

My agrument isn't really as much how long Allen held the ball or how much time he had before pressure as much as it is simply isolating a random stat can be misleading without context.  

Im trying to be respectful and just have a good football conversation w fellow football fans, so please dont take this as rude or confrontational.  

I just think its a little foolish or ignorant for someone who hasnt watched a ton of Bills football to pick out one stat with no understanding of context and decide that stat defines the player. 
Especially when trying to explain it to somone who has watched every offensive snap from last season multiple times. 

As mentioned, if it were backwards and i chose a random stat and tried to tell you it defines Daltons play - youd think I was crazy and try to explain the context of why i was incorrect. Id also defer to you, Bengals fan, who have watched him play more than I. Thinking I know more than you based on me isolating that stat would be super ignorant of me and thats also not how id want to evaluate players. 

Im not even arguing Josh Allen was good or bad. He was a rookie who showed some excellent flashes of being a game changer, but who also has flaws that will have to be fixed, masked, or ironed out. Holding the ball too long however was not one of the aforementioned flaws. He led the league in pass yards per attempt and completed yards per att. In an almost exclusive vertical passing attack, you need to have the ball in your hands longer than someone in a WC attack. Just the nature of the design. Not a detriment or issue - simply his game and the way the Bills designed their O attack last year. Considering the line he had its impressive what he WAS able to accomplish - esp when that line couldnt establish a run game either.

In fairness i know that when the comment comment was made no one was expecting to have to defend it either and it was just made in passing as a contribution to the convo.... BUT- Again, its all in the context 

[Au165]

It's kind of funny the Bills replaced a guy who held onto the ball way too long (Taylor) with another guy who hangs on to the ball way too long.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 11:09 AM)Au165 Wrote: It's kind of funny the Bills replaced a guy who held onto the ball way too long (Taylor) with another guy who hangs on to the ball way too long.

And went from a guy who has low 60's completion percentage (Taylor) to someone with low 50's completion percentage (Allen).
Great decision! 

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 11:32 AM)ochocincos Wrote: And went from a guy who has low 60's completion percentage (Taylor) to someone with low 50's completion percentage (Allen).
Great decision! 

Really?  Tyrod Taylor?  You're pimping him?   Ask the Browns how awesome he is.  Just watching him play is torture.

Like he hasn't proven beyond doubt, over time, that he won't win you jack shit?  You're right.  That is hilarious.  Before he ever took an NFL snap, the rookie was already better than Tyrod.

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 11:40 AM)McC Wrote: Really?  Tyrod Taylor?  You're pimping him?   Ask the Browns how awesome he is.  Just watching him play is torture.

Like he hasn't proven beyond doubt, over time, that he won't win you jack shit?  You're right.  That is hilarious.  Before he ever took an NFL snap, the rookie was already better than Tyrod.

Tyrod Taylor has actually proven to be a slightly below average NFL starter, not sure where your crazy hatred for him comes from. He actually would have worked in JAX in my mind, if I was the Jags I would have tried to get him last year. He doesn't turn the ball over and completes passes at a decent clip. For a 6th round pick the guy has far exceeded pretty much all expectations. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 11:40 AM)McC Wrote: Really?  Tyrod Taylor?  You're pimping him?   Ask the Browns how awesome he is.  Just watching him play is torture.

Like he hasn't proven beyond doubt, over time, that he won't win you jack shit?  You're right.  That is hilarious.  Before he ever took an NFL snap, the rookie was already better than Tyrod.

I'm not "pimping" Taylor. I'm saying they went with someone who has less accuracy than Taylor. 
And no, the rookie was not "better" than Tyrod in really any way.
BUF record 2015-2017 (While Taylor was there):
8-8
7-9
9-7

BUF's record 2018 (while Josh Allen was there):
6-10

Tyrod's stats in BUF vs Josh Allen:
Tyrod.....
2015 - 3035 pass yds, 63.7% completion, 20 TD, 6 INT, 568 rush yards, 4 rush TD
2016 - 3023 pass yds, 61.7% completion, 17 TD, 6 INT, 580 rush yards, 6 rush TD
2017 - 2799 pass yds, 62.6% completion, 14 TD, 4 INT, 427 rush yards, 4 rush TD

Josh Allen...
2018 - 2074 pass yds, 52.8% completion, 10 TD, 12 INT, 631 rush yards, 8 rush TD

So the only thing Josh Allen has proven over Tyrod Taylor is rushing more.


EDIT - You seem to be basing Taylor on him "winning" something, yet Allen hasn't won anything either. And if you're going to criticize Taylor, I hope you feel the exact same way about Dalton since Dalton "hasn't won anything" either. Should the Bengals get a big-armed, inaccurate QB in the 1st round like maybe Drew Lock just because Dalton hasn't won playoff games?

[Bryan]

(03-21-2019, 11:04 AM)Gobills123 Wrote: You certianly could, but either way - its built on context and why that context is important. 

My agrument isn't really as much how long Allen held the ball or how much time he had before pressure as much as it is simply isolating a random stat can be misleading without context.  

Im trying to be respectful and just have a good football conversation w fellow football fans, so please dont take this as rude or confrontational.  

I just think its a little foolish or ignorant for someone who hasnt watched a ton of Bills football to pick out one stat with no understanding of context and decide that stat defines the player. 
Especially when trying to explain it to somone who has watched every offensive snap from last season multiple times. 

As mentioned, if it were backwards and i chose a random stat and tried to tell you it defines Daltons play - youd think I was crazy and try to explain the context of why i was incorrect. Id also defer to you, Bengals fan, who have watched him play more than I. Thinking I know more than you based on me isolating that stat would be super ignorant of me and thats also not how id want to evaluate players. 

Im not even arguing Josh Allen was good or bad. He was a rookie who showed some excellent flashes of being a game changer, but who also has flaws that will have to be fixed, masked, or ironed out. Holding the ball too long however was not one of the aforementioned flaws. He led the league in pass yards per attempt and completed yards per att. In an almost exclusive vertical passing attack, you need to have the ball in your hands longer than someone in a WC attack. Just the nature of the design. Not a detriment or issue - simply his game and the way the Bills designed their O attack last year. Considering the line he had its impressive what he WAS able to accomplish - esp when that line couldnt establish a run game either.

In fairness i know that when the comment comment was made no one was expecting to have to defend it either and it was just made in passing as a contribution to the convo.... BUT- Again, its all in the context 

Isn't Jungle Noise only for Bengals fans?    Kidding, welcome aboard man. I hope Shady bounces back, I've always loved him.

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 11:42 AM)Au165 Wrote: Tyrod Taylor has actually proven to be a slightly below average NFL starter, not sure where your crazy hatred for him comes from. He actually would have worked in JAX in my mind, if I was the Jags I would have tried to get him last year. He doesn't turn the ball over and completes passes at a decent clip. For a 6th round pick the guy has far exceeded pretty much all expectations. 

Seriously?  Just watching him play is like being slapped around.  He suxx.  He doesn't turn the ball over cuz he won't throw it down the field ever.  He's never taken anybody anywhere.  He won in Buffalo because of their run game.  When did the Browns start to win?  Oh yeah, when they benched his sorry ass.

When I hear people sing his praises I just have to laugh because I have seen him play and he ain't shit.  The stats tell such a small fraction of his story.  Ask any Bills fan what a happy day it was when he got gone.

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 12:32 PM)McC Wrote: Seriously?  Just watching him play is like being slapped around.  He suxx.  He doesn't turn the ball over cuz he won't throw it down the field ever.  He's never taken anybody anywhere.  He won in Buffalo because of their run game.  When did the Browns start to win?  Oh yeah, when they benched his sorry ass.

When I hear people sing his praises I just have to laugh because I have seen him play and he ain't shit.  The stats tell such a small fraction of his story.  Ask any Bills fan what a happy day it was when he got gone.

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 12:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not "pimping" Taylor. I'm saying they went with someone who has less accuracy than Taylor. 
And no, the rookie was not "better" than Tyrod in really any way.
BUF record 2015-2017 (While Taylor was there):
8-8
7-9
9-7

BUF's record 2018 (while Josh Allen was there):
6-10

Tyrod's stats in BUF vs Josh Allen:
Tyrod.....
2015 - 3035 pass yds, 63.7% completion, 20 TD, 6 INT, 568 rush yards, 4 rush TD
2016 - 3023 pass yds, 61.7% completion, 17 TD, 6 INT, 580 rush yards, 6 rush TD
2017 - 2799 pass yds, 62.6% completion, 14 TD, 4 INT, 427 rush yards, 4 rush TD

Josh Allen...
2018 - 2074 pass yds, 52.8% completion, 10 TD, 12 INT, 631 rush yards, 8 rush TD

So the only thing Josh Allen has proven over Tyrod Taylor is rushing more.


EDIT - You seem to be basing Taylor on him "winning" something, yet Allen hasn't won anything either. And if you're going to criticize Taylor, I hope you feel the exact same way about Dalton since Dalton "hasn't won anything" either. Should the Bengals get a big-armed, inaccurate QB in the 1st round like maybe Drew Lock just because Dalton hasn't won playoff games?

To the bolded, run game, run game, run game, beginning and ending of story.

And to compare Andy Dalton to Tyrod, that is a total travesty.  And now I'm done with this.  I may just never talk about that little bum ever again.

[Au165]

(03-21-2019, 12:38 PM)McC Wrote: To the bolded, run game, run game, run game, beginning and ending of story.

And to compare Andy Dalton to Tyrod, that is a total travesty.  And now I'm done with this.  I may just never talk about that little bum ever again.

Tyrod Taylor PFF rating in Buffalo 84.1, 84.3, 88.3 
Andy Dalton PFF during same period 79.4, 80.8, 86.9
Josh Allen PFF last year 65.3

[*ochocincos*]

(03-21-2019, 12:38 PM)McC Wrote: To the bolded, run game, run game, run game, beginning and ending of story.

And to compare Andy Dalton to Tyrod, that is a total travesty.  And now I'm done with this.  I may just never talk about that little bum ever again.

Sounds to me like you want to give every possible excuse for Josh Allen but not give any leeway for Tyrod Taylor.
Why are you willing to give Allen a pass but not Taylor? Or I guess what makes you think that Allen will become a good QB? Allen seems all raw potential and I don't know if he has a good (enough) group of coaches to develop him properly.

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 01:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sounds to me like you want to give every possible excuse for Josh Allen but not give any leeway for Tyrod Taylor.
Why are you willing to give Allen a pass but not Taylor? Or I guess what makes you think that Allen will become a good QB? Allen seems all raw potential and I don't know if he has a good (enough) group of coaches to develop him properly.

I said one thing about Allen.  Excuse  me.  I won't cast any more aspersions on your guy Tyrod, godlike figure that he is in your eyes.  I take it all back.

[McC]

(03-21-2019, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Tyrod Taylor PFF rating in Buffalo 84.1, 84.3, 88.3 
Andy Dalton PFF during same period 79.4, 80.8, 86.9
Josh Allen PFF last year 65.3

My bad.  Tyrod is clearly better.  That's why no team has ever replaced him.  Who is he starting for now, btw?